Opinons on these two signatures please

[Anne in Carlisle]

I have two signatures from Parish Records. They are from two weddings and William East may or may not have been written by .....
a) the same person
b) two different people
c) one or both written by the vicar, LOL

The first is from a marriage in Burgh le Marsh, LIN, 15 Nov 1791



The second is from a marriage in Kirkstead, LIN, not very far from Burgh le Marsh. As you can see the groom is 'from the parish of Burgh le Marsh'. The date is 6 March 1820


I will explain my dilemma when you have had a chance to look at them with an unbiased eye!! Thanks
Anne

[Uncle John]

My initial reaction is that they are not the same person. The capital W and E are quite different.

[Olde Crone Holden]

Sorry, UJ, I disagree! I would say both signatures are the same man, bearing in mind they are almost 30 years apart.

OC

[Mary from Italy]

I think it's two different people, although I'm no expert. The middle stroke of the W is much shorter in in the first image than the second; I wouldn't have thought that would change so drastically even in 20 years.

The vicar should only write the names in the signature section if the person makes their mark, as in the case of the two wives.

In both cases, the writing in the signature section looks different from the vicar's writing at the beginning of the entry.

[Anne in Carlisle]

Glad to see I'm not the only one who thinks they might be the same! Here's the story. Sorry, rather long - thanks for looking; I would really appreciate some opinions.

My OH’s ancestor was William EAST who married Mary ARCHER in Burgh le Marsh in 1791 (the first record). We have no proof of William’s origins, although he may have been baptised at Donington on Bain, LIN in 1767.

Mary EAST (nee ARCHER) died in 1819 in Burgh le Marsh.
William EAST died in April 1837 aged 72 in Burgh le Marsh.

The second marriage, at Kirkstead, was in 1820 and the groom was William EAST from Burgh le Marsh.

Now all the EASTs from Burgh le Marsh are descended from William EAST and Mary (ARCHER). I have detailed lists and connecting trees to prove it, extracted from the microfiche collections at Lincoln Archives. There is no suitable younger William from the family who could have been the second groom unless his baptism was omitted from the records.

I first found the marriage at Kirkstead on the IGI (a submitted record) and for years I dismissed it as fanciful. On my last visit to Lincoln I just had time to check the Kirkstead records to see if it existed ..... blow me! it was correct!

When I saw the signatures I got quite excited because they do have a certain similarity. HOWEVER, I found a death (on the NBI) in Kirkstead for a William EAST aged 24 in 1823. I really must assume (I think) that it was he who was the groom, but then I have no idea who he was! There are very few EASTs in Kirkstead but William and Elizabeth appear to have had at least one son, Joseph Preston EAST.

I confess I ran out of time at Lincoln and really need to make the journey back to properly look at the Kirkstead records.

Anne

[Nichola]

The word William looks similar considering the time difference but the East looks very different. Very hard to say.

[Olde Crone Holden]

The slope and outline of the two signatures looks very similar to me. My own signature has changed radically in 30 years and I now form one capital letter in my name in a completely different way.

I would say that 30 years has given William East time to perfect his flourishes! Both small "l"s are formed with a little loop at the top. The correct way to form these would be starting at the bottom of the "l" and raising the loop the upward length of the letter.

OC

[Phoenix]

I take it that the licence info does not survive? That might give an age?

I would find it very hard to be definite, based on just two words, but the christian name looks very similar, as does the final letter of East.

My literate ancestors would cheerfully alter their signatures over time. Even parish clerks seem to get bored and try out new styles.

[Anne in Carlisle]

Thanks for your thoughts. Please see post 5 for the full story.

Thanks
Anne

[Canadian Cousin]

FWIW, I'd also agree that the two signatures are similar enough to have been written by the same person, especially considering the time span. Even though the two Ws written (presumably) by the groom are somewhat different, they are more similar to each other than to the Ws written (presumably) by the vicars at the top left of each cert.

Hope this helps -

Tim

[Little Nell]

I agree with OC, that the two signatures are similar and bearing in mind nearly 30 years' interval between them, any differences are understandable. My signature now doesn't look much like it did 30 years ago.

[Granny Lynne]

I too think it is the same person's signature as the W's are very similar.
My own signature has changed very much in 30 years particularly as my name has also changed - LOL!!

[Anne in Carlisle]

Bump this up again so it is near the other thread. Sorry for being confusing :o

Anne

[Joan of Archives]

Have you had a look to see if Elizabeth Chapman East remarried before 1837? If she did then her husband couldn't have been William East the elder one.

If she didn't well then maybe he was the same William. I think the signatures are close enough to be the same person too, bearing in mind the time difference.

[Anne in Carlisle]

Ahhhh! Thanks Joan - good point! I'll need to add that to my list of things to do at Lincoln next time I go.
Now why didn't I think of that :o??

Anne