OK last ditch attempt to find this family in 1881 census - help please - UPDATE

[perranmaid]

Forgive me this is a bit long and some of you have helped me with this family before but this is a last ditch attempt to find them and get further back with this family.

I have in
1871 RG 10 1573 F70 pg26 Luton Beds
Charles Clifton 39 chimney sweep b Bicester
Jane 33 b Radnorshire New Radnor
Sarah 1 b Oxfordshire Watlington


1891 RG12 1272 F131 pg 12 Luton Beds

Charles Clifton 57 chimney sweep b Pinner middlesex
Jane (says age 47) b New Radnor
Annie 14 b Wadlington
George 8 b wadlington
Johnny 12 London Sudbury (my Gt Grandfather)

1901 RG13 1514 F103 pg 15 Luton Beds
Charles 67 Sweep b Pinner Harrow
Jane 65 b New Radnor
John 23 b Low place Sudbury
George 19 Wadleston Oxford
Johnny 8 Gson b Luton

I also know they had another son Samuel born Luton workhouse in 1872 (birth cert) in 1891 he's at Kempston barracks and in 1901 he's in jail in Portland. (that is a tale in its self.)

In 1861 there are several possibilities for Charles.

I have been searching now for 8 years for the birth of John to get his birth certificate, my father tried many years ago with no joy. If I can find them in 1881 this may or may not give additional clues.

I also cannot go back beyond Charles without further clues as to his origins.
I cannot find his marriage to Jane formerly Griffiths (samuels birth cert) either
any help most gladly received and I will share a cyber champagne with anyone who can help solve this mystery.

[Jill on the A272]

I've been taking a look, but have had no results. I think the difficulty with 1881 often lies in outdated and innacurate transcripts.

[perranmaid]

Thankyou Jill.

I am off to bed now so will be back tomorrow.

What do you mean by inaccurate? spelling or otherwise.

[Guest]

I've been looking too, but no luck yet with the marriage or 1881 census records may try again tomorrow

[Jill on the A272]

At the late lamented Family Records Centre I spent hours spooling through films looking at the areas where I knew my families had lived and found a number of mistranscriptions, plus one family missed off altogether. (The image is not on Ancestry either.) However I think my ggg grandfather must have been a bit senile and given the enumerator the wrong info, he gives his visiting sister her maiden name just to fog the issue even further,

[Elizabeth Herts]

I'm probably repeating what you already know, but there is a birth for

John Clifton Sept qr 1878
Hendon (checked on Google maps - that's where Sudbury is) 3a 128

[perranmaid]

Thankyou Elizabeth I do have that one so based on your agreeing with me re location I have just tried to phone them and wouldn't you know it "this phone is temporarily out of order" just my luck. I think what was confusing me is that whenever I google Sudbury it shows as Suffolk. Must be one of those places that moved!!! I also noticed on the Google map there is a place called Waldingfield close by I wonder if the enumerator assumed place of birth??? off for a search on that later.

[Merry Monty Montgomery]

Annie 14 b Wadlington
George 8 b wadlington

As in 1891 we have the above children with Johnny born in London in between, it would be reasonable to imagine they could have been in Watlington in 1881.

I had a look at the census records for Watlington in 1881 and noticed:


District 1 - Not sure if district 1 is part of the same parish (probably), but it's not included for Watlington.
District 2 - Page 1 Folio 15r - Page 32 Folio 30v - No pages missing
District 3 - Page 1 Folio 34r - Page 32 Folio 49v - No pages missing, one page duplicated (27)
District 4 Completely missing. Should be Folios 53 - 68
District 5 - Page 7 Folio 72r - Page 18 Folio 77v First six pages missing, rest complete, but end section may well be missing.
District 6 - Completely missing. Can't tell Folios easily as don't know where District 5 should have ended!
District 7 - Page 13 Folio 98r - Page 17 Folio 100r Finishes with "End of the civil parish of Watlington". Pages 1-12 missing

So, there's lots of scope for this famly to be in Watlington!!

[perranmaid]

Thankyou Merry Where do you find that information please??

As you say based on the missing pages they could be there, would the pages be genuinely missing or stored away somewhere and just not available for scanning???

[Merry Monty Montgomery]

I found the info by going into ancestry (old search), clicking on the 1881 census link, then scrolling down below the search box where there's a list of counties, select the county and then the parish and you get a list of districts. Then it's just a case of seeing what is there!

Some large areas are completely missing from census records and some individual pages are also completely missing. However, if you can view a film of the same records at a County Record Office or at an LDS Family History Centre or somewhere else, you may find the image is on the original film.

OH had rellies in St Pancras in London. There was only one page missing from dozens of districts, but his family were on that one page (which I then got fro the now closed Family History Centre in London)!! I am always particularly suspicious when one side of a sheet of paper has made it to Ancestry or the LDS but not the other side! lol

[perranmaid]

Cheers Merry, another item to add to to do list. Looks like I could be going for a trip around the country!!!!

Anyway I have posted off an order for Charles death cert. to see if there are any clues on that one, still cannot get through to Barnet office to check re John's birth. Seems Hendon is now covered by them. Tis a genuine fault on the line so will let them off.

[perranmaid]

Just an update re 1881 I have emailed Oxfordshire records office with regard to the missing online pages they ask for 7 days to reply so just waiting on that.

Thankyou all again the comments above have triggered lateral thinking which when I sit here alone working on the problem never occur to me.

[perranmaid]

OH YESSSSSSSSS result.

Finally got through to Barnet reg office this morning and he wasn't sure where the record would actually be. So took the details and said he would ring back later just had a call from a different office I'm so excited can't remember which one they have John's birth details and it's on it's way.

30 years I have been hunting for it I call that a result.


Thankyou all.

[Elizabeth Herts]

Linda,

I'm so pleased for you. It's great when you make that long-overdue breakthrough!

[perranmaid]

Now did his parents get married or not??? still hunting for that as well.

[perranmaid]

[QUOTE=perranmaid;1446826]Just an update re 1881 I have emailed Oxfordshire records office with regard to the missing online pages they ask for 7 days to reply so just waiting on that.[QOUTE=perranmaid;1446826]

Right got an answer from them and they suggested contacting National archives which I have now done. They say 7 to 10 days to reply so just have to wait and see. But they have very kindly offered to search (for a fee) the baptism registers if I wish.

Thgink I'll wait and see what NA have to say.

[perranmaid]

How's that for service.

Death cert application posted Monday to Luton reg office got that yesterday.
Birth cert at Hendon via Barnet turned out to be Harrow got that this morning.

Couple of clues on the birth cert about why he was confused about where he was born Born Stonebridge Harrow mothers residence when she registered the birth one month later was Oxhey Lane Pinner she also had a second name whuch I knew nothing about.

Still no real help with going backwards in time but a nice piece of jigsaw in place.

Thanks again for the help earlier in the week.