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  • Getting very frustrated - can anyone help?

    My great grandfather was called John Cross, born in June 1880 in Tamworth, Staffs/Warks. He married Helen Clempson, born 12 Nov 1883 in Amington, Warks.

    I have been trying for ages to definitely identify John Cross' parents. I have is a first name, approximate age and DOB for his mother from the 1881, 1891, and 1901 censuses. I am certain that this is the correct Emma, since my grandmother remembers the children from her second marriage:

    Emma Unknown, born approx. 1852 in Tamworth Staffs/Warks

    Emma remarried in 1887 after her husband's death. Her 2nd husband was called Thomas HILL (mistranscribed HIRE in 1891)

    John Cross is listed as living with his mother Emma and step-father Thomas in 1891 and 1901.

    I've also found the following entry in the 1881 census:

    William CROSS, born approx. 1852 in Corley, Warks (Corley is about 20km from Tamworth), BAKER by profession
    Emma CROSS, born approx. 1852 in Tamworth, Staffs/Warks
    Henry CROSS, born approx. 1872, Harrogate, Yorks
    Mary Ellen CROSS, born approx. 1874, Harrogate, Yorks
    Maud CROSS, born approx. 1877, Tamworth, Staffs/Warks
    John CROSS, born approx. 1880, Tamworth, Staffs/Warks

    Again, this is definitely the correct family - the children appear on later censuses with Emma and her second husband, along with their half-siblings who are in living memory (of my grandmother).

    I can't track down William and Emma before this. The children aren't any help, because all were born after 1871.

    The only possible entry I can find is in the right area - Yorkshire - where the two eldest children were born, but the first name of the husband is wrong and the ages are out:

    Charles CROSS, born approx. 1847, Tamworth, Staffs/Warks, MASON'S LABOURER by profession
    Emma CROSS, born approx. 1848, Tamworth, Staffs/Warks

    Also, is it really likely that someone would go from being a labourer to a baker within 10 years in those days? I'm guessing not...

    Note that the family moved back to Tamworth. I have found a death registration for a William Cross in Tamworth in 1883 aged 37. This would put his date of birth around 1846. The census record for 1881 puts 'my' William at around 1852. However, I can't find a better match. I can't find a marriage for either a William or a Charles Cross with an Emma for the relevant time period (i.e. before 1872 when the first child was born) either in Tamworth or in North Yorkshire.

    Can anyone help? It's driving me up the wall!

    TIA,
    Zoe

  • #2
    Do you have the birth certificate for John Cross

    from FreeBMD
    Births Jun 1880
    CROSS John
    Tamworth 6b 464

    This would give his mother's maiden name which would help you find a marriage between William and Emma.
    Elaine







    Comment


    • #3
      Hi Elaine,

      Thanks - I'll order that certificate! For some reason, it didn't occur to me to trace the marriage through the maiden name on the birth certificate.

      I have now looked more closely at the marriage registration for Emma and Thomas Hill. She's only down with the name Cross. Wasn't it usual for widows to have both their maiden name and first married name put down when subsequently remarrying? Certainly that's what I've found in other cases of remarriage.

      Zoe

      Comment


      • #4
        You'll normally find previous names on birth certificates, but not on marriage certificates.
        Elaine







        Comment


        • #5
          To be certain you would need to get John Cross's birth certificate which would show his mother's maiden name.
          I did find this marriage
          Emma Weakly
          Year of Registration: 1868
          Quarter of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar
          District: Kings Norton (To 1912)
          County: Staffordshire, Warwickshire, Worcestershire
          Volume: 6c
          Page: 522 others on the page are William Henry Cross, Harriet Neale and Stephen Canty
          So this is a possibility.
          Margaret

          Comment


          • #6
            The only ref to her prev surname on the 2nd marriage cert would probably be in her father's details.

            In the 20th C (after 1912?) the indexes often (but not always) include maiden names as well as prev married surnames for women who are marrying for a second time.

            Comment


            • #7
              Dec 1887 has a Thomas Hill & Emma Cross on freebmd marrying in Tamworth
              Phoenix - with charred feathers
              Researching Skillings from Norfolk, Sworn from Salisbury and Adams in Malborough, Devon.

              Comment


              • #8
                Thanks all!

                I have a possible marriage - I was looking in North Yorkshire and it appears I should have been looking at Yorkshire/West Riding.

                BAILEY Emma Knaresborough 9a 139
                CROSS William Knaresborough 9a 139

                Zoe

                Comment


                • #9
                  Thanks Phoenix, but I have that - it's her first marriage that was elusive. I believe I've found it now, though.

                  Zoe

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Sorry, not answering your question properly. It would be unusual for a widow to revert to her maiden name when remarrying. In fact it would probably suggest she was not previously married or, in modern times, that she was divorced and had reverted to her maiden name. I have only come across a single example in my family - where first husband was a sailor who had presumably abandoned his wife.
                    Phoenix - with charred feathers
                    Researching Skillings from Norfolk, Sworn from Salisbury and Adams in Malborough, Devon.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Do you have the Thomas Hill Mmarriage certificate? The only way you would find mmn from that would be if her father's surname is given. This usually happens, but would not if she were illegitimate or possibly if her father were dead.
                      Phoenix - with charred feathers
                      Researching Skillings from Norfolk, Sworn from Salisbury and Adams in Malborough, Devon.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Here's an example from 1895 of what I mean from the Staffs BMD (totally random, not my family)

                        HILL * Thomas W KEATES Mary E Checkley, St Mary and All Saints Staffordshire Moorlands 16C/1/480
                        HILL * Thomas W REEVES Mary E Checkley, St Mary and All Saints Staffordshire Moorlands 16C/1/480

                        i.e. woman listed with two names because she is remarrying. I thought that was standard, but obviously not.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Zoe, how can you be sure that you have found the correct marriage if you don't know Emma's maiden name. Unless you get a birth certificate of one of the children it would be very easy to go down a wrong line!
                          Elaine







                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Hi Phoenix,

                            No, I don't have a marriage certificate for Emma and Thomas. I'm concentrating on buying direct line certs at the moment because otherwise I'll go bankrupt

                            I think I'll order the marriage certificate of the Emma Bailey and William Cross in my post above, though.

                            Zoe

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Elaine, I can't be sure - as I said, it's only a possible. But it fits on place (fits in with two of the childrens' place of birth) and approximate year (one year before birth of first child). So I'll order the certificate and see if there are any more clues such as the ages fitting too. Never know, witnesses might help.

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Originally posted by zoejg View Post
                                Here's an example from 1895 of what I mean from the Staffs BMD (totally random, not my family)

                                HILL * Thomas W KEATES Mary E Checkley, St Mary and All Saints Staffordshire Moorlands 16C/1/480
                                HILL * Thomas W REEVES Mary E Checkley, St Mary and All Saints Staffordshire Moorlands 16C/1/480

                                i.e. woman listed with two names because she is remarrying. I thought that was standard, but obviously not.
                                Well that could refer to his birth name and the name that he has been known by. For example if he was born illegitimately and registered under his mother's name of Keates, his mother then married a Mr. Reeves, so he used the name Thomas Reeves in later life. The marriage registration was then listed under his birth name and his "known as" name.
                                Elaine







                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  It's the woman's name that has alternatives, not the man's, and Staffs BMD gives remarriage for one of the reasons for two names being listed.

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Sorry Zoe - I can see it is the woman's name! Not concentrating.
                                    Elaine







                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Originally posted by zoejg View Post
                                      Elaine, I can't be sure - as I said, it's only a possible. But it fits on place (fits in with two of the childrens' place of birth) and approximate year (one year before birth of first child). So I'll order the certificate and see if there are any more clues such as the ages fitting too. Never know, witnesses might help.
                                      The trouble is, if you don't know mum's maiden name then it might turn out the older children has a different mother and the marriage you need is at a completely different date!

                                      If you want to limit the number of certs you might almost be better off getting the second marriage cert as this would tell you her maiden name (probably) and her father's name.

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Zoe, I'm not sure that the certificate you have chosen is the best one. The birth certifcate will give you the mother's name and confirm you are on the right lines. If you go straight to the people you think are the parents, and get it wrong, then you may chase the wrong tree and not realise it for some time.

                                        Your ancestors won't go away, and you can probably find out lots of other things about them while you are saving up for the next certificate, but it really will save you money in the long term to get birth, then marriage, then birth certificate.
                                        Phoenix - with charred feathers
                                        Researching Skillings from Norfolk, Sworn from Salisbury and Adams in Malborough, Devon.

                                        Comment

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