Possible birth?

[Sussex Maid]

I have been trying to narrow down a birth date/month for one of my ancestors from the following information that I have

marriage 30 Jul 1848 - age 22
census 30 Mar 1851 - age 24
census 7 Apr 1861 - age 34
census 2 Apr 1871 - age 44
census 3 Apr 1881 - age 54
census 5 Apr 1891 - age 64
census 31 Mar 1901 - age 74
death 14 Apr 1901 - age 74

Think his birth should have been between 15 April and 30 Jul 1826, am I right? - I accept that he could have been lying through his teeth about his age, but I have to start somewhere.
Thank you

[Uncle John]

I'd aim for a slightly wider margin, personally. If you find anything, it's more likely to be a baptism than a birth. Have you tried the IGI?

[Merry Monty Montgomery]

I agree with Uncle John!

Also, most of my ancestors where I do have a birth date, persisted in giving their age as one year more than we would today. Probably because they were in the habit of saying "he was in his 23rd year" or "he was in the 23rd year of his age" meaning he was 22 and a bit. This then went down on any form as 23!!

[Sussex Maid]

Uncle John and Merry
Thank you for your replies.
I was hoping to discount a person put forward as my ancestor - the birth place and father's name were the same but the surname was slightly different (the theory put forward was that 'there is a chance that a mistake was made by the vicar in filling in the form').
regards

[Merry Monty Montgomery]

Most people didn't have standard spellings for their names until the 1870's. If someone thought your name should be spelled a certain way then that was how they would spell it! So, the vicar wouldn't have considered he had made a mistake even if someone said they prefered their name spelled a particular way.

Can you find your chap in 1841?

[Mary from Italy]

He may have exaggerated his age slightly when he got married so that he wouldn't need parental consent. If he was born in the first half of 1827, he wouldn't have been quite 21 when he got married.

[Sussex Maid]

Merry and Mary
Thank you for your replies - apologies for not replying sooner but the screen froze on Sat, while I was still logged on, and this is the first time I have been able to connect to the site - I hate technology!
Merry - The names, possibly, mis-spelt are Andrews/Anderson and no I have not been able to find him in 1841 (always gave place of birth as E(y)nsham in Oxon but he is not in any of the parish records there as Anderson. There is an Andrews family who have a William baptised at about the right time - Oxon Records Office did a search for me and suggested the vicar putting down the incorrect surname. However, as there are four other children baptised to the Andrews family it seemed to me that maybe the vicar got it right.
regards

[Merry Monty Montgomery]

Perhaps he was from a non-conformist family?

I would say that Andrews and Anderson are different names not variable spellings and so if the vicar put one for the other he would only make that mistake once and not for a whole family. However, some families do change their surnames!

Have you tried to find the Andrews family in 1841/1851 etc in order to eliminate them?

[Sussex Maid]

Merry
Have been unable to find the John and Jane Andrews (parents) on the 1841 census - checked for Andrews and Anderson.
Have also had the same problem with the death information for these two as well - in that I have been given, by the record office, burial dates for a John and Jane Anderson (21 Aug 1850 and 2 Mar 1848 respectively) at Ensham. Have been able to find registration for Jane Anderson (1848 Witney district) but there is no registration for a John Anderson, there is however a John Andrews registered (1850 Witney district). Have ordered both these certificates to see if they throw any more light on this.
regards

[Merry Monty Montgomery]

I've just been looking at this (hope you don't mind?!). It does seem a bit strange! lol

From IGI:

John Andrews married Jane Townend in Ensham in 1815

Children of John and Jane Andrews:

1) JOHN ANDREWS Birth: 10 JUN 1816 Christening: 25 AUG 1816 Eynsham, Oxford

2) THOMAS ANDREWS Birth: 13 OCT 1818 Christening: 01 NOV 1818 Eynsham, Oxford

3) WILLIAM ANDREWS Birth: 12 JUN 1821 Christening: 23 JUN 1821 Eynsham, Oxford

4) SARAH ANDREWS Birth: 23 NOV 1823 Christening: 28 DEC 1823 Eynsham, Oxford

5) WILLIAM ANDREWS Birth: 30 OCT 1826 Christening: 26 NOV 1826 Eynsham, Oxford

Children of John and Jane Anderson:

JAMES ANDERSON Birth: 02 OCT 1829 Christening: 13 DEC 1829 Eynsham, Oxford

There are no other Anderson baps in the same patch and though there are other Andrews baps, there are none with same forenames at similar dates to get confused between.

Moving to the 1851 census (because of place of birth being recorded!) and going from the top:

1) We had a bap for John Andrews in 1816 and in 1851 there's a John Andrews b abt 1817 in Ensham occ Ag Lab

2) Bap for Thomas Andrews 1818 and in 1851 there's a Thomas ANDERSON b abt 1819 in Ensham occ Tallow Chandler

3) I presume this William died as they had another.

4) Bap for Sarah Andrews in 1823 and in 1851 there's a Sarah ANDERSON b abt 1824 in Ensham, occ servant

5) Bap for William Andrews in 1826 and of course your William Anderson matches up with this one!

I then had a look at other Andersons in 1851 who said they were born at Ensham. Unfortunately, by the time I had eliminated those who were married women and those who have already been covered, there was only one:

Edward Anderson b abt 1826 in 1851 for whom there isn't a baptism, but (of course!) there is a bap for an Edward Andrews in 1826 (illegitimate child of a Sarah Andrews)

I haven't been able to find any Andrews to match up with the original bap list except for the first born, John.

Then back in 1841 I can't find ANY of them! lol I have studied Ensham 1841 pages and can't see there are any missing, which is very frustrating!!!

So, nothing conclusive, but very strange.

Maybe more work required??!!! lol

[Sussex Maid]

Merry
thank you so much for taking the time to look through all of that. I think a visit to Oxford is called for to try and sort them all out once I have got the death certificates.
regards

[Merry Monty Montgomery]

Oh eureka! Solved!!! lol

1851 the first born was John Andrews (the only direct match I got linking the baps to the 1851 census.

John Andrews head m 34 Ag Lab b Ensham
Ann Andrews wife m 34 b Ensham
Joseph Andrews son 2 b Ensham

living at Mill St, Ensham

1851 ref: HO107; Piece: 1731; Folio: 89; Page: 6

and then in 1861 we have:

John Anderson head m 44 Ag Lab b Eynsham
Ann wife m 44 b Eynsham
Joseph son 12 scholar b Eynsham
Thomas son 9 scholar b Eynsham

living at Mill St, Eynsham

1861 ref:

RG9; Piece: 904; Folio: 5; Page: 4

[Merry Monty Montgomery]

OK, so not solved exactly, as we don't know why they did this (other than because they felt like it! lol) but I think the fact that John changed his name must be HIGHLY significant

[Merry Monty Montgomery]

Although John Andrews was clearly listed as such in 1851, the birth registrations of his children, Joseph and Thomas, are both in the name of Anderson!

John also died as an Anderson:

Deaths Jun 1869
Anderson John 53 Witney 3a 398

[Sussex Maid]

Merry
Gosh thank you!!
I had a note of the John/Ann Anderson in 1861 but couldn't find them in 1851 - now I know why.
Going back through some old notes I had, I found a John ANDERSON (son of John, keeper) who married Ann AYRIS (dau of Joseph, lab) in Ensham 1847 - he seems to pick and choose which name he goes by...
If - as seems more likely - William, the son of John and Jane b 30 Oct 1826, is my ancestor, then slightly confused as to whether I'm an Anderson or an Andrews
regards

[Merry Monty Montgomery]

slightly confused as to whether I'm an Anderson or an Andrews

I suppose unless we find out why they changed the name you won't know!

I did notice that John Andrews (the father of all the Andrews who married Jane Townsend in 1815), MIGHT have been illegitimate himself. There's a bap in 1788 with only a mother's name recorded. Maybe his real father was an Anderson??

[Sussex Maid]

Andrews/Anderson...help please

Encouraged by the help and info from Merry, I have got the following information and would welcome any thoughts/ideas.

burial Ensham (from OFHS parish records CD)
1848 02 Mar ANDERSON Jane age 60
1850 21 Aug ANDERSON John age 63 (David) - think/hope this might be Davis, need to check original register.

Ordered certificate for Jane Anderson - 'died 27 Feb 1848 Ensham, age 60, wife of John Anderson/labourer, informant Eliza Roberts'.

marriage - 1848 12 Nov ANDERSON John fa widr lab s Robert DAVIS, farmer
Walker Hannah minor d Joseph, lab

Unable to find death registration for John Anderson in Witney district BUT there is a John ANDREWS, I ordered this and certificate shows 'died 16 Sep 1850 Ensham, age 63, labourer, informant Sarah Lambourn'. Needless to say there is no record of a burial for John ANDREWS!

1851 census ref HO107;Piece:1731;Folio:119;Page:16
Hannah ANDREWS wid 20 b Ensham
*Robert ANDREWS son 1 b Ensham
(*ANDERSON Robert b 25-11-1849/bap 3-3-1850 s. John and Hannah)

marriage - 1852 04 Jul ANDERSON Hannah wid fa d. Joseph
JAMES George fa b tailor s. David, lab

1861 census ref RG9;Piece:904;Folio:29;Page:7
George JAMES 30 tailor b Swinbrook, Oxon
Hannah JAMES 30 b Ensham
Robert DAVIS 11 son-in-law b Ensham
*Mary Ann James 9 dau b Ensham
(*ANDERSON Mary Ann b11-1-1852/bap2-5-1852 d. Hannah (no father's name)

Am I right in thinking that the death of John ANDREWS and the burial of John ANDERSON refer to the same person?
Is it possible/legal for a death to be registered one month after the event?
Would there be the need for a certificate before burial could take place?

Not sure that the above shows that my William Anderson is the son of John and Jane ANDREWS, (note: I have found an ANDREWSON burial in 1769 Ensham which 'might' offer an explanation for the identity crisis, but he's filed away for future use) but I think/hope I can show it's highly probable?

[Olde Crone Holden]

Back in 1850, it wasn't impossible to bury someone without registering the death.

They may have decided to register it because awkward questions were asked, or possibly the Burial Club wanted proof of the death before they would pay out.

OC

[Merry Monty Montgomery]

I haven't taken all that in, but surely the burial would need to be 21st September, not 21st August, if it's to tie in with the death cert??

[Olde Crone Holden]

Tut, Merry, that's the query!

OC