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Can you help me find Ralph Renwick?

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  • Can you help me find Ralph Renwick?

    While I'm waiting for the certificates that I hope will shed light on my mystery men, can I be cheeky and ask for more help?

    I'm trying to nail down the 13 children of Adolphus Renwick and Anna Maria Burnham, born between 1881 and 1902. I have lists from both my mother and my grandmother which both come up to about 11 and then list "+2", and in rough but not exact age order.

    My mother's list:
    Emma
    Adolphus (Dolph)
    James
    Charles
    Alfred
    Ralph
    Esther
    Annie
    May
    Alice
    Winifred

    My grandmother's list:
    Emma, my mother
    Dolph, eldest son
    Fred
    Jim
    Esther, lived to 89
    Ralph, died of food poisoning
    Charlie, killed in 1914/18 war
    Alice
    Win
    May
    Annie

    I have been through the images of the index for every quarter between 1881 and 1905 and have come up with the following list:

    Emma Elizabeth b. 5.7.1881 (d. 1956)
    Adolphus b. Q2 1883
    Frederick George b. Q1 1885
    William Thomas b. Q1 1888 (d. Q2 1888)
    Annie b. Q3 1889
    James Stephen b. Q1 1891
    Esther b. 14.8.1892
    Alfred b. Q1 1894 OR Alfred John b. Q4 1894 (two entries)
    Alice b. Q2 1896
    Charles Richard b. Q4 1897 (d. 9.4.1917)
    Frances May b. Q2 1899
    Winifred Maud b. Q1 1902

    I cannot at the moment substantiate that William Thomas was one of the missing 2, he came from someone else's tree and would need a birth certificate to corroborate. I would also need a reference check to pin down which Alfred is the correct one.

    Owing to the period over which the children were born, none of the censuses includes them all. We are absolutely certain that there were 13 children: Anna Maria and Adolphus lived until at least 1940, Emma until 1956, all overlapping substantially with my mother, born 1931. My mother knows from both her grandmother and her great grandmother that Emma was the eldest of 13 and that she effectively brought up her siblings while her mother was producing them. All the births were registered in St Olaves, Southwark.

    However - I can't find Ralph at all in the indexes. My grandmother's note about him was at the same time so precise and so banal that I can't think she imagined it or made him up. Can anyone help?

  • #2
    Have you looked at the censuses at all?

    Comment


    • #3
      Yes, but no Ralph
      Last edited by Pipemma; 15-10-08, 13:49.

      Comment


      • #4
        Have you got any idea how old Ralph was when he died? And have you found ALL of the census records for the family?

        Zoe

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        • #5
          I don't suppose "Ralph" could have been a pet name for "Alfred"?

          Or there is a Ralph Frank Renwick born Jun 1908 Billericay and died Hampstead the following quarter, but that doesn't sound quite right for what you have.
          KiteRunner

          Every five years or so I look back on my life and I have a good... laugh"
          (Indigo Girls, "Watershed")

          Comment


          • #6
            Of Alfred and Alfred John, Alfred John seems to have died:

            Births Mar 1894
            Renwick Alfred St. Olave 1d 283

            Births Dec 1894
            Renwick Alfred John St. Olave 1d 283

            Deaths Dec 1894
            Renwick Alfred John 0 St. Olave 1d 131

            Comment


            • #7
              There are no other Alfred Renwicks born around 1894 in Eng/Wales, other than the two posted previously, so is this a death for your Alfred?

              Deaths Sep 1923
              RENWICK Alfred aged 29 Lambeth 1d 248

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              • #8
                Are Adolphus (Dolph) & Ralph perhaps the same person?

                Jay
                Jay

                Comment


                • #9
                  Dolph certainly wasn't Ralph, this much we know

                  However, the idea that my grandmother might have added an R to Alf...? Maybe, especially as the list was written in, I would guess, the last 5-7 years of her life, when her mind was beginning to go... My mother has always pronounced it "Rafe" though (as in Richardson). Whether that's because the family pronounced it that way or because the actor was such famous figure I wouldn't know

                  Merry, it looks to me like you may have pinned down Alfred; if so it would be interesting to get that death certificate and find out the cause of death - maybe that might tie up with KR's supposition of Alf/Ralph... If that turns out to be correct, then the question is who was the mysterious 13th? There is a gap between Frederick and William (assuming William was no. 12), and given that all the other children were almost exactly 18 months apart over the course of 20 years, that gap might bear reexamining

                  In terms of the censuses, I have 1881, 1891 and 1901 for the family and I've found what I think is likely to be Emma in service with a Geary family in East Ham in 1901 (her future husband was from Leyton so that's presumably where they met) - RG13 Piece 1600 Folio 99 page 51

                  Thanks again for the help - I think that's given me another avenue to explore
                  Last edited by Pipemma; 16-10-08, 16:46.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    There's definately an Emma E Renwick, servant on that ref page. I've saved a copy if you want it PM me your e-mail address. It says she was born Bermondsey London.
                    Emma E Renwick
                    Age: 19
                    Estimated Birth Year: abt 1882
                    Relation: Servant
                    Gender: Female
                    Where born: Bermondsey, London, England

                    Civil Parish: East Ham
                    Ecclesiastical parish: Little Ilford St Mary the Virgin
                    Town: East Ham
                    County/Island: Essex
                    Country: England
                    Daphne

                    Looking for Northey, Goodfellow, Jobes, Heal, Lilburn, Curry, Gay, Carpenter, Johns, Harris, Vigus from Cornwall, Somerset, Durham, Northumberland, Cumberland, USA, Australia.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Does this look promising?

                      On the assumption that a child that's been lost from family memory to the extent that their existence was known but name/person forgotten is most likely to be an infant death? Also assuming that William Thomas (Q2 1888) is no. 12, then there are only two Renwick births in St Olave in the timeframe:

                      Elizabeth Agnes Q1 1886 St Olave 1d 281
                      Albert Henry Q4 1886 St Olave 1d 277

                      (There was a Jane Q4 1887 St Saviour, but that would assume William Thomas is *not* no. 12, and I doubt the birth of 1 child out of 13 would be registered in the neighbouring parish)

                      Looking at deaths in the same timeframe I found:

                      Albert Henry Q4 1886 St Olave 1d 172

                      Does Albert Henry sound like a reasonable working hypothesis for number 13? The timing of the birth matches the 18 month intervals almost perfectly

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Thanks Geordiegirl, that's the one I've got.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Does Albert Henry sound like a reasonable working hypothesis for number 13? The timing of the birth matches the 18 month intervals almost perfectly
                          It does seem reasonable, but I have to say the whole story reminds my of my father's family. He was supposed to be one of 14 and I have the tendency to carry on saying this now, even though I have only found 13 live births (of course there could have been a still birth). When I last saw my auntie (the youngest of the family and the only one still "with it") she spouted the "14", as I do. I asked her if she could remember the names and she had no trouble, with 13 names!!! She said she had never been told her mother had a still birth and was aware that her mum has a child every other year from 1906 until 1932. That would be 14, but they were not exactly every two years, so there's only 13! Auntie confessed that everyone said the figure without actually counting! lol

                          So, go ahead and check out the births that might be your missing ones, but don't be too upset if you don't find every one!!

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I certainly take your point, Merry, I would imagine even when you're the one having them you probably stop counting after 10! However, if you count the confirmed children, there is that 4 year gap - I think it may well be worth looking at. But I'm even more intrigued to see the cause of death for Alfred - do death certs give parents names at all?

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Pipemma View Post
                              But I'm even more intrigued to see the cause of death for Alfred - do death certs give parents names at all?
                              Not usually - only for children (would have father's name, or mother's if the child was illegitimate) and sometimes for spinster ladies.

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                              • #16
                                do you know much about the other siblings? maybe you should look for their premature deaths as well?

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  The others (11) all lived to adulthood - which I guess is pretty good going. I have marriages for most of them, May remained unmarried and was, to my grandmother's knowledge, still alive in the mid 80s when the list was written, and Charlie died in the Battle of Arras in 1917.

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by Pipemma View Post
                                    The others (11) all lived to adulthood - which I guess is pretty good going. I have marriages for most of them, May remained unmarried and was, to my grandmother's knowledge, still alive in the mid 80s when the list was written, and Charlie died in the Battle of Arras in 1917.

                                    I can't see a death in England/Wales for May or Frances May in 1984 or after, so maybe she died in the last year or two that isn't yet transcribed?

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