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  • Am I on the right track here?

    I have a birth cert for a living person born 1926.

    His mother's maiden name is Moore on the cert. Father is correct. Mother's first names are correct.

    I have his mother's birth cert and her name is Atkins. At the time of her borth her mother was Mrs Moore (a widow). Two months after the birth, her mother (Mrs Moore) married Mr Atkins.

    Now, I'm presuming Mr Atkins is the baby's father.

    Why would "Living person Smith" have mmn Moore.

    I thought maybe Mrs Moore would have to register daughter as Moore seeing as she wasn't married to the father and he maybe wasn't present, but she is registered under her father's name (Atkins).

  • #2
    I guess he was present, and given that they were soon to marry, registered to baby in what was to be their name.

    Is there a registration under mothers surname too?
    Jess

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    • #3
      Hi Libby

      On some NSW certs I have seen, there was no actual column for surname, but that was earlier in the 1850s, but could have been the same format even in 1926. Did the birth cert ask where and when married ?

      if the mother said the father was Atkins, then that would be assumed to be the babys name. If he was present at the registration, perhaps he could be named even if they were not married. Perhaps the registrar asked what is your name, not what was your maiden name, not knowing she was a widow, not an unmarried mum.

      I have one where the fathers name was entered, but crossed out, when asked for her marriage, the mother said not married, and the registrar just put a line through the fathers name and wrote "given in error, they were not married".

      Diane
      Diane
      Sydney Australia
      Avatar: Reuben Edward Page and Lilly Mary Anne Dawson

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      • #4
        Diane...this one is in England in 1901.

        Jess... there is no reg under the mother's name. It seems as you say, she was registered under her father's name. But why was Moore given as her maiden name on her own son's birth cert??

        Comment


        • #5
          Libby - could it be that Living Smith's mother knew she was born before the marriage of her mother and Mr Atkins and presumed she was registered in her mother's name?

          Do you have Living Smith's mother's marriage cert and, if so, what name does she give for her father?
          Gillian
          User page: http://www.familytreeforum.com/wiki/...ustGillian-117

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          • #6
            Living Smith's mother's marriage cert has Atkins for father.
            The only thing I canthink of is that the Moore is simply an error and a co-incidence, but can't quite work it out.

            I might need the death cert for Mr Moore. At least they're not mine, I'm helping a friend.

            Isn't it a pain when someone asks for help and you get them to do all the right things, and there's a fly in the ointment. lol

            Comment


            • #7
              I can't think of another possible explanation then unless, as you say, it was just an error.

              More and more of the people I meet who ask me to give them a few tips on getting started seem to have the idea that you can whizz back to at least the 1700s at the click of a few mouses!

              At least you have plenty of experience with flies in the ointment - genealogically and, in view of your location, probably physically too lol
              Gillian
              User page: http://www.familytreeforum.com/wiki/...ustGillian-117

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              • #8
                Gillian.......I just feel bad for these people as they asked what they'd need and they were happy to go back a step at a time and buy certs to make sure. Only got back to their grandfather before a hitch.

                Oh well......at least we know we have the correct person so that's the main thing. I tracked my great grandfather back for ages till I realized he'd died before his first birthday lol. Wrong man!!!!

                Comment


                • #9
                  If there's a birth reg under Atkins for the mum and no birth reg under Moore, then Mrs Moore and Mr Atkins MUST have been pretending to be married when their child was registered (if they weren't married).

                  Maybe the daughter had fallen out with Mr Atkins at a later date and thought, "I'm not putting his name as my maiden name" or maybe she had discovered that Mr Atkins wasn't her bio father or some other controversy that led her to put her mum's name from the time of her own birth?

                  I think also some registrars must have been poor at collecting the right info from people. I have lost count of the number of births I have found, particularly pre-1920, where the mum is on a second marriage but rather than give her maiden name to the registrar, has given her previous married name, which then appeared in the mmn column!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    After forty years of saying that Edmund Albert Skillings had no birth certificate, I have found him, thanks to Freebmd, registered as Edwards. Awaiting the birth certificate to find out exactly what that says. He was illegitimate & baptised and brought up as a Skillings.

                    His elder half sibling John was also registered as an Edwards. Their mutual father, John Edwards was clearly the village lothario and married John's mother Ann Sparrow when John jr was still a baby and a few weeks before Edmund was born.

                    When Ann died, John snr married Edmund's mother.

                    On the 1861 census, John jnr is down as John Sparrow. Did both boys dislike their father? Was it a step mother's petty revenge? Did the village all know the truth, so there was no point pretending?

                    In your case, if the mother used the name Moore, then that was possibly what she was usually known as, regardless of what the birth certificate said. Alternatively, the question may have been badly phrased. She may have thought mmn meant her mother's mmn, which she didn't actually know!
                    Phoenix - with charred feathers
                    Researching Skillings from Norfolk, Sworn from Salisbury and Adams in Malborough, Devon.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I have a certificate where I think that has happened!

                      Registrar said "And Mother's maiden name?"

                      My dim relative must have thought this meant HER mother's maiden name, because that is what she said! Both she and her mother were respectably married at the births, so there was absolutely no other reason to cloud the issue.

                      OC

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                      • #12
                        My great grandfather has the wrong father's name. Actually has his maternal uncle as his father.

                        I'm not sure what happened with this one.

                        I don't want to post names that will identify anyone yet, but.

                        Living Smith's mmn was Atkins (she was reg as Atkins, even though her parents didn't marry till she was 2 months old).

                        Ellen Jones married Mr Moore in 1893. Mr Moore died in 1898.
                        Ellen Moore worked as housekeeper for Mr Atkins (a widower). Both had two children from their marriages. Then in Dec 1901, Ellen has the baby reg as Atkins. Ellen and Mr Atkins marry Feb 1902.

                        Ellen's baby marries a Mr Smith. Mr and Mrs Smith have baby (living) Smith with mmn Moore.

                        That might set it out better, but still doesn't expain anything. I'm not worried, but it is another trap for young players. lol.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I suppose at least it will show your friend that they can't believe everything it says on documents - it may actually help them to see that early on in their research.
                          KiteRunner

                          Every five years or so I look back on my life and I have a good... laugh"
                          (Indigo Girls, "Watershed")

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I think Ellen's baby (Susie) is being extremely pedantic about the truth. She realised her parents were not married at the time of her birth, even though they pretended they were, on the birth certificate.

                            As her mother's previous name was Moore, then Susie assumes that should have been her OWN legal birthname. Perhaps she thought her mother had not been married before?

                            In fact anyone can call themselves anything they want to, but some people assume that they will "get into trouble" for using a name which isn't legally theirs.

                            Perhaps it was no more than an heroic striving for the truth?

                            OC

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Ellen's baby marries a Mr Smith. Mr and Mrs Smith have baby (living) Smith with mmn Moore.

                              Do we know who reg the birth and said mmn Moore? Maybe Mr Smith did it? Men always get things wrong! lol

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Sometimes the answer depends on the question asked.
                                If the question is "what was your name before you married Mr Smith?" rather than "What was your maiden name?"
                                a widow could truthfully state the surname of her first husband.
                                If the mother had been a spinster when she married Mr Smith, the answer to both questions would have been the same.

                                The same applies to census - "where do you come from?" may well produce a different answer from "Where were you born?"
                                Janet in Yorkshire



                                Genealogists never die - they just swap places in the family tree

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                                • #17
                                  I think I've found it........the daughter of Ellen Atkin (nee Bloggs formerly Moore) calls herself 'Lindy Loo' Moore-Atkin when she marries. Then her first child has Moore-Atkin as mmn, then next child (Living Smith) has just Moore as mmn.

                                  What a kerfuffle for new players.......

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Libby

                                    Not just new players, old players too, including this one!

                                    My 2 x GGF and his wife had nine children, none of them registered, but all baptised.

                                    I was puzzled as to the very odd middle name of one of the daughters but worked up a wonderful scenario about how her father worked for this man (who lived in the same street and employed plumber/painters) and they had given one of their daughters his surname out of respect/gratitude/friendship etc.

                                    Couldn't have been more wrong. IN FACT, when I eventually thought outside the box, I found all the children's births registered under that weird middle name, which then led me to his marriage and then to his birth. Appears to have been a little doubt about whether his parents were married, lol, and different transcribers have used the two different surnames.

                                    Puzzled the Registrar too. He indexed it correctly for marriage but the GRO indexed it with the other surname, hence why I could never find the marriage, nor the registration of any of the children.

                                    Oh, and that man in the same street? His brother!

                                    OC

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Hyphenated surnames seem to be a bit of a lottery, both for enumerators and transcribers. I was following a surname, which we'll call Smith-Jones. In some censuses I found a family of Smith-Jones, enumerated and transcribed as such. In others I found them enumerated correctly but transcribed as Fred S Jones and family. And in one census the enumerator has them as Fred S Jones and family. I eventully winkled them out by searching separately for Smith and Jones.
                                      Uncle John - Passed away March 2020

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        My Huband lot (you may remember searching for his baptism) gave each of their children a second name that was a surname of the town's business poeple.

                                        One had the solicitor's surname for a second name, one had the head of the RM base when dad was stationed, one even had the butcher.

                                        Odd really as the father turned out to be the missing son of Warwickshire Hubands and from a long line of gentry and the mother was from a long line of Devon gentry.
                                        Not sure if they were thumbing their noses or what.

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