Unconfigured Ad Widget

Collapse

Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Mystery Men - no. 1

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Mystery Men - no. 1

    Hello everyone. I've been lurking but I'm going to be cheeky enough to make my second post a plea for help!

    I'm doing pretty well with our family tree, but there are two mystery men on whom I'm really focusing. I'll split them over 2 threads for clarity.

    The first is my maternal great grandfather's father. The family were all from the Romford/Upminster/Leytonstone area of Essex. According to my great grandfather's marriage certificate, his father is listed as a William John Edwards with occupation of Doctor of Medicine. Family legend says (and appears to be corroborated by the censuses) that he and my GGF's mother never lived together, although he had been referred to in the family as "Dr Edwards". His granddaughter (who never knew him) postulated that maybe he had been an apothecary rather than a doctor, but we can find no trace of him - either now with online resources, or 40 years ago at Somerset House.

    My GGF's mother was one Elizabeth Enever, born 1846, and in the 1871 census she is listed as living with her parents, brothers and my GGF's elder (by 10 years) sister Lizzie Enever, age 7 months. By 1881 Elizabeth is living in her own household, her surname is by this time Edwards, and with her are living her 10-year old daughter Elizabeth Edwards (surname changed) and her twin 1-year-olds, Harry George (my GGF) and Lily (in fact they were triplets, more of which later) and she is listed as a widow. By 1891 and 1901, the household comprises these three plus 2 younger sisters - also surname Edwards - and Elizabeth (nee Enever) is still listed as a widow.

    Now my problem is can't seem to find any record of a marriage for Elizabeth Enever to William John Edwards, nor can I find birth certificates on Free BMD for Harry George and Lily (Harry George died in November 1955 at the age of 76 - we have his death cert). We do have among our paperwork a death certificate for a William John Edwards who died in Whitechapel in 1891, aged 51 - right area, right age - whose occupation, however, is given as "2nd engineer of the SS Times, late of Commercial Road, Limehouse" and whose rather colourful cause of death is given as "Violent compressions of the brain & fractured skull caused by a fall on the pavement while under the influence of alcohol". I have also ordered the birth certificate for the youngest sister in the hope that it may corroborate the father's name and maybe shed more light on his occupation.

    So my questions are:
    1. Is it possible that Elizabeth Enever and William John Edwards never actually married? That she just used his surname and called herself a widow for the sake of respectability? The Enevers were all agricultural labourers, according to the census, so I don't suppose there'd have been much money for a wedding. If he were indeed at sea, it could explain why they never lived together

    2. Failing the free BMD, where else can I look for birth certificates for Harry George and Lily? (My great aunt, Harry George's daughter, tried to get his birth cert from Somerset house 40 years ago with the name info we have, only for it to be rejected)

    3. I would really like to find out at least the sex of the triplet who, family legend has it, died before the family could claim a bonus for a triplet birth. Can anyone tell me what this bonus might have been?

    4. Where should be my next avenue to find out whether the drunken sailor (or rather engineer) was the right William John Edwards? I'm assuming that Harry George is likely to have given his father's name correctly at the time of his marriage, even if he might have exaggerated his social standing (especially if he was dead and couldn't dispute it!)

    5. Are deed poll name changes kept online anywhere? It would be interesting to be able to corroborate that my GGGM did indeed change Lizzie's surname

  • #2
    Hello

    It is more than possible that Lizzie just claimed she was a widow and had never actually married. It would be unusual for a lady to have that many children and for everyone to know that she was in fact a spinster! (Although it is not unkown).

    May I ask how you know they were triplets? Is it family legend? Do you know when the other triplet died and how old he was?

    Deed poll - I think this is a modern invention and wouldn't have been available in the time period we are looking at. Legally you can call yourself whatever you like.

    Remembering: Cuthbert Gregory 1889 - 1916, George Arnold Connelly 1886 - 1917, Thomas Lowe Davenport 1890 - 1917, Roland Davenport Farmer 1885 - 1916, William Davenport Sheffield 1879 - 1915, Cuthbert Gregory 1918 - 1944

    Comment


    • #3
      Here's some birth registrations!

      Name: Lily Cordelia Enevre
      Year of Registration: 1879
      Quarter of Registration: Apr-May-Jun
      District: West Ham
      County: Essex, Greater London
      Volume: 4a
      Page: 140


      and:

      Name: Ha_Ry George Enevre
      Year of Registration: 1879
      Quarter of Registration: Apr-May-Jun
      District: West Ham
      County: Essex, Greater London
      Volume: 4a
      Page: 140

      West Ham is the right district for Leytonstone.

      Comment


      • #4
        Well done Merry!


        I was still trying to find out which district covers Leytonstone - seeing it was West Ham I just realised I should have known that as it is where my great granny was born and great great grandparents died. :o
        Last edited by Tom Tom; 12-10-08, 18:52.

        Remembering: Cuthbert Gregory 1889 - 1916, George Arnold Connelly 1886 - 1917, Thomas Lowe Davenport 1890 - 1917, Roland Davenport Farmer 1885 - 1916, William Davenport Sheffield 1879 - 1915, Cuthbert Gregory 1918 - 1944

        Comment


        • #5
          Looking at the original index it doesn't seem as though there was another child registered at the same time. This means that if there was a third child that it was probably a still birth, so no records can be found (unless you are very lucky and can find a burial record).

          Remembering: Cuthbert Gregory 1889 - 1916, George Arnold Connelly 1886 - 1917, Thomas Lowe Davenport 1890 - 1917, Roland Davenport Farmer 1885 - 1916, William Davenport Sheffield 1879 - 1915, Cuthbert Gregory 1918 - 1944

          Comment


          • #6
            There's no third birth reg though, at least not under that surname spelling!

            Comment


            • #7
              Didn't the monarch dish out a guinea for surviving multiple births? I know I've seen such mentioned in The Times, but I can't see anything now, quickly.

              Comment


              • #8
                We do have among our paperwork a death certificate for a William John Edwards who died in Whitechapel in 1891, aged 51 - right area, right age - whose occupation, however, is given as "2nd engineer of the SS Times, late of Commercial Road, Limehouse" and whose rather colourful cause of death is given as "Violent compressions of the brain & fractured skull caused by a fall on the pavement while under the influence of alcohol".
                Do you mean this is a historical copy, or one you have bought?

                Comment


                • #9
                  ****** hell that was quick!! Thanks!

                  I never thought to look under Enever for Harry and Lily, but both the district and date are right - I know Harry George's birthday was 6 April as mine is 7 April and my mum says "day after my grandad" every year! One census lists Lil as Lily C Edwards, which would corroborate that. So that suggests the name change was made around 1880.

                  How do I know about the triplet? That came directly from my grandmother and great aunt (HG's daughters). As my great aunt was researching her father, it seems a comparatively safe piece of information and I know not everything is always documented in one place. For instance, my great grandmother (HG's wife) was one of 13, but no online source lists all 13 children - in fact my GGM is one of the 2 usually omitted

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    The guinea rings a vague bell....

                    The certificate is a certified copy costing 40p in 1972 so I imagine it's one my great aunt got in the hope of tracing William John Edwards. This is one reason I don't want to trust it as being the right person without corroboration.

                    If the twins were registered under the name of Enever, that would explain why my great aunt couldn't find HG's birth certificate

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Here's a William Edwards in Commercial Road Limehouse in 1891. Right age and a mariner,

                      RG12; Piece: 297; Folio 4; Page 2

                      but is the death cert just one that was guessed at, or purchased by someone who knew more details?

                      (Do you have access to Ancestry?)

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Sorry, we cross posted!

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Yes, I have access to ancestry. I rather suspect it was a bit of straw clutching by my great aunt, after her father was dead.

                          The trick, I guess, is going to be making any concrete link between a William Edwards (I believe he was known as John in the family, but I could well be wrong) and Elizabeth Enever/Edwards - the trouble with common names!

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I would doubt Elizabeth was ever married. I would also doubt she changed her name (or that of her children) by any official methed. I do have one relative who changed his name by deed poll around this date, but he was a rich man with a lot of property and business dealings, whilst Elizabeth would be purely drawing attention to her childrens illegitimacy. It was probably easier to lie to the census enumerator than to do so to the registrar, though many people did do that too!

                            If an unmarried mother admitted as much to the registrar and her partner accompanied her to the reg office then his name could be put on the birth cert (there are some dates this was not allowed, but earlier than this). However, in theory (lol) there should then be a second set of index entries under the "other" surname, in this case Edwards, but there are none, so it seems unlikely there will be a father named on the certs for Harry and Lily. (unless Elizabeth pretended to be married but used her maiden name!!)

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Merry Monty Montgomery View Post
                              I would doubt Elizabeth was ever married. I would also doubt she changed her name (or that of her children) by any official methed. I do have one relative who changed his name by deed poll around this date, but he was a rich man with a lot of property and business dealings, whilst Elizabeth would be purely drawing attention to her childrens illegitimacy. It was probably easier to lie to the census enumerator than to do so to the registrar, though many people did do that too!

                              If an unmarried mother admitted as much to the registrar and her partner accompanied her to the reg office then his name could be put on the birth cert (there are some dates this was not allowed, but earlier than this). However, in theory (lol) there should then be a second set of index entries under the "other" surname, in this case Edwards, but there are none, so it seems unlikely there will be a father named on the certs for Harry and Lily. (unless Elizabeth pretended to be married but used her maiden name!!)
                              This is what I'm surmising. I rather suspect this is truly a situation of a "common law wife". I've ordered the youngest sister's certificate (she is registered as Edwards, apparently) and I'm rather expecting there to be no father named. Which leaves us, at present, with just Harry George's marriage certificate giving name and occupation - not the most reliable source I suspect. If I get no joy with the youngest sister's birth cert, I'll order up her marriage cert - but at 7 squid a pop I'm trying to be as efficient as possible!

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                I wonder if any of the birth addresses would help?

                                I suppose if she didn't marry the man there was a reason and the most likely must be that he was married to someone else, so maybe the addresses won't help?

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Or the family wouldn't pay for a wedding for a girl who'd already got into trouble? She had no reputation left to save? Lizzie was 10 years older than Harry and Lil.... In 1861 (age 15) Elizabeth was in service in Whitechapel, I don't know for how long but I'm wondering (and have nothing to substantiate it) whether Lizzie was the result of one of the sons of the house having his wicked way? How frustrating not to be able to check, I would put money on there being no father on Lizzie's birth certificate

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    So, how many children did Elizabeth have?

                                    Lizzie, Lilly, Harry and two more?

                                    Did Lizzie marry? I wondered if she was told she was the child of Dr Edwards as well? (even though she perhaps wasn't)

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Yes, Lizzie, Lily and Harry the twins (triplet - I reckon must have been either stillborn or died within a day or so, certainly before a birth could be registered), Maudie and Win. Win's granddaughter is, to my knowledge, still alive and it was she who mooted the idea that her grandfather might have been an apothecary and that "Doctor" was an honorific. I've no idea whether that idea has any basis.

                                      Yes, Lizzie did marry (Day was his surname but we don't know his first name and I haven't got round to looking on ancestry), as did Lily (found marriage GRO ref but there are two chaps on there so I guess I'd have to order another certificate to work out which one it was). Win also married (hers will be the next marriage cert - be interesting to see if they all list the same father!)

                                      I just don't know where to go next to try and trace the father - there are bound to be tons of William John Edwardses around Essex at the period

                                      BTW I was reading the thread on stillbirths - are they just as chary about giving out info when it's so far back? Could that be another avenue?

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Interesting that in 1881 Elizabeth was in Camberwell, but went back to Leytonstone for the next baby:

                                        Name: Maud Enever
                                        Year of Registration: 1882
                                        Quarter of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar
                                        District: West Ham
                                        County: Essex, Greater London
                                        Volume: 4a
                                        Page: 176

                                        Comment

                                        Working...
                                        X