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jackiex_x
11-10-08, 18:30
Hi

I'm trying to grace my great-grandmother's parents.

All I know for certain is that My great-grandmother was called Myfanwy Irene (first and middle names) unsure of surname, she married Albert Philip Roberts (not sure if it's philip or phillip). She died on 1st Feb 1966 at age 72 (which it says on her death certificate which another member of the family has) which could mean she was born in 1893 or 1894 - depending on which month her birthday is and I know the names of her children and she lived in Skewen West glamorgan all her MARRIED life (which was until her death) but not sure if she was born there.

I have found a Birth record suggesting her surname is Evans and that she was born in Pontypridd and I have found a 1901 census entry with an Irene Myfanwy (but I am 99.9% sure that Irene was her middle name as her grand daughter had the same middle name as her).

How can I be sure that any of these are her? I cannot find a marriage record for her. There are no living relatives that have any more info on her.

Please tell me that my family tree doesn't have to come to an end here? How can I go any further... could someone please help?

thanks
jackie:confused:

Merry Monty Montgomery
11-10-08, 18:32
I think I gave you her marriage record yesterday, didn't I?

Just Gillian
11-10-08, 18:34
Hi Jackie

The birth certificate of one of your grandmother's children will give you her maiden name.

Edit - sorry, I meant great grandmother!

Merry Monty Montgomery
11-10-08, 18:35
Marriages Sep 1914
Arthur William M to Jones Neath 11a 1878
Evans Myfanwy I J to Roberts Neath 11a 1878 <<<<<<<<<<<<<
JONES Annie to Arthur Neath 11a 1878
Roberts Philip A to Evans Neath 11a 1878 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Do you have details of their child who is your grandparent? Have you got the birth cert for that child?

KiteRunner
11-10-08, 18:40
This is the easy part, Jackie, because you can get a birth certificate for one of her children and check her maiden name, then get her marriage certificate and see her father's details, then probably with an unusual name like that there won't be too many birth registrations to choose from, so you should be able to find out her mother's name from her birth certificate.

That might be where the problems start, if her parents' names are, say, David Evans and Mary Jones (just as an example) - often with Welsh families you get stuck with people who have the same names as everybody else and it's tricky sorting them out. But maybe you will be lucky and her parents will have unusual names!

Merry Monty Montgomery
11-10-08, 18:42
And did her age at death tie up roughly with this?

Births Jun 1893

Evans Myfanwy Irene Pontypridd 11a 573

Was the 1901 census person you found born in a place within Pontypridd district?

jackiex_x
11-10-08, 18:43
I think I gave you her marriage record yesterday, didn't I?

Did you? Sorry where was that?

Merry Monty Montgomery
11-10-08, 18:45
On your previous thread......don't worry, I've copied it across here, further up!

Merry Monty Montgomery
11-10-08, 18:49
The most important thing you need is your grandparent's birth cert!

jackiex_x
11-10-08, 18:51
ok thank you very much everyone, I will have another look. :-)

jackiex_x
11-10-08, 18:56
of course.....that's where I got the Evans from in the first place (i'm getting confused I think...so many names and dates lol). My grandfather's birth record and his brother's birth record both say Evans.

Right, so now I have this birth entry for a Myfanwy Irene Evans how do I actually know that it's definately the right woman? Plus there's not mother's maiden name on there as there is for the birth records for her 2 sons??? But apparently this woman was born sometime between apr-jun 1893 BUT I still don't know that it's definately the right person :-) argh......

jackiex_x
11-10-08, 18:59
Marriages Sep 1914
Arthur William M to Jones Neath 11a 1878
Evans Myfanwy I J to Roberts Neath 11a 1878 <<<<<<<<<<<<<
JONES Annie to Arthur Neath 11a 1878
Roberts Philip A to Evans Neath 11a 1878 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Do you have details of their child who is your grandparent? Have you got the birth cert for that child?


Roberts Philip A to Evans Neath 11a 1878

This one seems feasable BUT I still can't be 100% sure it's her lol...I'm making this too complicated me thinks. I think I need the 1911 census....i'll have to hang on 3 yrs :D

jackiex_x
11-10-08, 19:07
And did her age at death tie up roughly with this?

Births Jun 1893

Evans Myfanwy Irene Pontypridd 11a 573

Was the 1901 census person you found born in a place within Pontypridd district?

You're too good at this...how did you find out the June? I can only find Apr/May/Jun 1893.

I looked on freeBMD.org.uk and ancestry (i've got a subscription).

The census bit that i've got is wrong - it says Cowbridge not Pontypridd :-(

Merry Monty Montgomery
11-10-08, 19:13
My grandfather's birth record and his brother's birth record both say Evans.


Do you have an actual certificate for one of these two, or are you working from the GRO index only?

I would suggest you buy a birth cert, particularly if you know the date of birth that should be on it. That will give you something concrete to work from.

That "June" you mentioned is just what I copy pasted from freeBMD and means the June Q (Apl May or June). That Q fits with the age at death exactly.

Remember how lucky you are that with names like Evans and Roberts there only seems to be one marriage and one birth to choose from! You are one lucky lady! lol

jackiex_x
11-10-08, 19:16
i was hoping to save the expense of buying birth certificates - I will have to tho it seems.

Thanks again for all your help :-)

KiteRunner
11-10-08, 23:10
Jackie, you always need certificates, and especially with a name like Evans. It is so easy to go wrong if you just work from the GRO indexes and censuses.

Margaret in Burton
11-10-08, 23:11
i was hoping to save the expense of buying birth certificates - I will have to tho it seems.

Thanks again for all your help :-)

You should never try to cut corners by missing out buying certs. I did years ago and ended up tracing the wrong family. I had 200 years of info that was no relation to me.

Olde Crone Holden
11-10-08, 23:15
Yes, me too! Didn't buy the cert and followed the wrong family back five generations!

OC

Liz from Lancs
11-10-08, 23:21
When I first started out (on Genes Reunited) I had no idea that I would have to spend on certificates but it is the only way.

Good luck with it.

kylejustin
12-10-08, 13:44
jackie it sounds like you have the right family, but get the certs to back it up.
you will never know if you are on the right path if you dont get certs. especially if you come across common names.

all the women in my trees are always elizabeth, mary, jane, and anne. and if you find one with a common surname, you will never tell if that's the right family just from the census alone.

if you want, just research the family through the census for ageneral idea of the family tree. then get the certs, you will be surprised what you find out.

jackiex_x
18-10-08, 17:09
Me again

I've had the birth certificate back for Myfanwy Evans now but I still can't be 100% that it's the right person. I checked BMD for her marriage details and found Phillip A Roberts (yes his name was around the other way - my mother got it wrong!), and it says he married someone called Myfanwy I J Evans but on her birth cert it says only Myfanwy Irene. The dates do tie in (married sept 1914) as we know she was pregnant on her first child when she got married who was born Mid 1915. It all seems to tie up but do you ever know 100%? If I get this one wrong it could throw out the whole family tree, I'm still new to this and would appreciate advise please.

Tom Tom
18-10-08, 17:18
Hi Jackie,


If you get the marriage certificate it would tell you Myfanway's father's name and occupation, as well as her age.

You could then check this against the details of the birth certificate you already have.

I have lots of people who either pick up a middle name or drop one of their middle names.

:)

Merry Monty Montgomery
18-10-08, 17:18
The marriage cert should tell you what the I and the J stand for. It should also tell you her father's name and occ which will hopefully match the birth cert info.

The cert you got is the only one anywhere on FreeBMD for a Myfanwy I Evans (there are no births for a Myfanwy I J Evans), never mind the I being for Irene, which it is, of course!

Do you want to tell us her parents so we can look for her in 1901, or have you found her?

jackiex_x
18-10-08, 17:48
yes please. This birth cert says that myfanwy's parents were David Jones Evans and Ellen Jane Jones but I cannot find any census entries to say these names!

KiteRunner
18-10-08, 17:50
They may well not have put their middle names down on the census forms. What was David's occupation, and what was the address?

Elaine ..Spain
18-10-08, 17:51
Possible here:
RG13; Piece: 4959; Folio: 110; Page: 11.

Myfanwy Jane Evans born c 1893 Tyloestown, Glamorgan

David's occupation - Paint maker in shipyard
address: 42 Dolphin Street, Newport

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&rank=0&gsfn=myf*&gsln=evan*&sx=&f1=&f2=&f4=&f18=&f12__n=&rg_81004011__date=1893&rs_81004011__date=2&f27=&f14=&f15=&_8000C002=david&_80008002=ellen&_80018002=&f7=&f8=&f9=&gskw=&prox=1&db=uki1901wales&ti=5538&ti.si=0&gss=angs-d&pcat=UKICEN&fh=0&recid=485935&recoff=1+3+25+39

Merry Monty Montgomery
18-10-08, 17:56
This should be their marriage:

Marriages Dec 1891

Evans David Jones Pontypool 11a 306 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Green Mary Pontypool 11a 306
Hunt John Pontypool 11a 306
Jones Ellen Jane Pontypool 11a 306 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Merry Monty Montgomery
18-10-08, 17:57
Possible here:
RG13; Piece: 4959; Folio: 110; Page: 11.

Myfanwy Jane Evans born c 1893 Tyloestown, Glamorgan

David's occupation - Paint maker in shipyard
address: 42 Dolphin Street, Newport

I think that is the one! Shows they were quite flexible with middle names.

jackiex_x
18-10-08, 17:59
They may well not have put their middle names down on the census forms. What was David's occupation, and what was the address?

he was a grocer's assistant, 14 Penrhys Rd, Tylorestown Pontypridd

jackiex_x
18-10-08, 18:00
Possible here:
RG13; Piece: 4959; Folio: 110; Page: 11.
- Ancestry.co.uk (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&rank=0&gsfn=myf*&gsln=evan*&sx=&f1=&f2=&f4=&f18=&f12__n=&rg_81004011__date=1893&rs_81004011__date=2&f27=&f14=&f15=&_8000C002=david&_80008002=ellen&_80018002=&f7=&f8=&f9=&gskw=&prox=1&db=uki1901wales&ti=5538&ti.si=0&gss=angs-d&pcat=UKICEN&fh=0&recid=485935&recoff=1+3+25+39)

what does all that mean? is there a website i'd use to look that up?

KiteRunner
18-10-08, 18:01
Well, the occupation may not match but the birthplace looks as though it does so that census entry is very likely them. Hopefully if we can find the father in 1891 he will have the right occupation!

Merry Monty Montgomery
18-10-08, 18:05
The ref Elaine posted is to help you find the 1901 census entry on Ancestry.

You need to open the 1901 census search page, click on Advanced search and down the bottom you can enter the piece, folio and page number to find the right page.

Hopefully someone cleverer than me can do some screen shots! lol

*waits patiently*

KiteRunner
18-10-08, 18:10
I can't see him in 1891 just now but having looked at the 1901 census entry that Elaine found, it's definitely them because it gives the parents' middle names and they match what you have.

The link that Elaine posted up is a link to a site called ancestry which has all the English and Welsh censuses from 1841 - 1901 and the reference numbers she posted up would help you to find the right entry on the 1901 Wales census, but you would need to buy some pay-as-you-go credits or a subscription to view the actual entries on there.

Merry Monty Montgomery
18-10-08, 18:12
Well, the occupation may not match but the birthplace looks as though it does so that census entry is very likely them. Hopefully if we can find the father in 1891 he will have the right occupation!

EVANS, David 1865 26 M St George Hanover Square London
EVANS, David 1870 21 M Liverpool Lancashire
EVANS, David 1869 22 M Newport Monmouthshire
EVANS, David 1864 27 M Cardiff Glamorganshire
EVANS, David 1866 25 M Cardiff Glamorganshire
EVANS, David 1870 21 M Pontypridd Glamorganshire
EVANS, David 1870 21 M Neath Glamorganshire
EVANS, David 1865 26 M Neath Glamorganshire
EVANS, David 1869 22 M Carmarthen Carmarthenshire
EVANS, David 1869 22 M Hay Brecknockshire
EVANS, David Lewis 1869 22 M Merthyr Tydfil Glamorganshire
EVANS, David P 1866 25 M Pontypool Monmouthshire
EVANS, David Samuel 1869 22 M Pontypridd Glamorganshire
EVANS, David W 1870 21 M Merthyr Tydfil Glamorganshire

I have to go and eat!

jackiex_x
18-10-08, 18:19
This is fantastic...you're all teaching me loads on how to search. I found the census entry (I do have an ancestry subscription). All I need to do now then is to send for her marriage certificate to be 100% sure this is the right person that I have the birth certificate for?

Tom Tom
18-10-08, 18:24
This is fantastic...you're all teaching me loads on how to search. I found the census entry (I do have an ancestry subscription). All I need to do now then is to send for her marriage certificate to be 100% sure this is the right person that I have the birth certificate for?

Yep - hopefully her marriage would say her dad is David Jones Evans :)

KiteRunner
18-10-08, 18:40
I had a look at a few possible David Evanses born Penbryn Cardiganshire (I think it was - whatever it said in 1901, anyway) on the 1891 already but none of them were grocers' assistants, but of course it could be that he didn't have that job then anyway, so it could be a waste of time. When Jackie gets to the stage of getting David and Ellen's marriage certificate, that will be the time to look for them in 1891, I should think. But since the 1901 census gives everyone's middle names, we know that's the same family as on the birth certificate even though David's occupation is different, don't we?

jackiex_x
18-10-08, 18:45
I had a look at a few possible David Evanses born Penbryn Cardiganshire (I think it was - whatever it said in 1901, anyway) on the 1891 already but none of them were grocers' assistants, but of course it could be that he didn't have that job then anyway, so it could be a waste of time. When Jackie gets to the stage of getting David and Ellen's marriage certificate, that will be the time to look for them in 1891, I should think. But since the 1901 census gives everyone's middle names, we know that's the same family as on the birth certificate even though David's occupation is different, don't we?

I guess he could have changed jobs? Thanks again for all your time and patience with me hehe.

jackiex_x
24-10-08, 21:34
Yep - hopefully her marriage would say her dad is David Jones Evans :)

Nope, now I'm confused.... just had marriage cert back today and it says her father's name was David JOHN Evans and that he was a Colliery Fireman..
Her birth certificate says he was David Jones Evans and he was a Grocers Assistant.

NOW how do I know I've got the right lady? BUt surely he could change jobs but not middle names???

Orangeblossom
24-10-08, 22:05
How old does it say she is on the marriage cert?

At least it says David and not someone else lol

jackiex_x
24-10-08, 22:15
How old does it say she is on the marriage cert?

At least it says David and not someone else lol

21..which tallys

Orangeblossom
24-10-08, 22:23
and is her name Myfanwy Irene Jane?

I would think it's the same person, perhaps with her father incorrectly recorded. There were a lot of Colliery Firemen in Wales in the early 1900s. He may well have become a fireman in the time between the census and her marriage.

jackiex_x
24-10-08, 22:26
and is her name Myfanwy Irene Jane?

I would think it's the same person, perhaps with her father incorrectly recorded. There were a lot of Colliery Firemen in Wales in the early 1900s. He may well have become a fireman in the time between the census and her marriage.


it says her name is Myfanwy Irene Jones Evans....

Merry Monty Montgomery
24-10-08, 22:32
BUt surely he could change jobs but not middle names???

Anything goes really!!

I an having a worrying feeling that the father (I think I'll just call him David) may have either had some dramatic change of surname or began life as a Jones not an Evans or was illegitimate or something else very difficult (because Jones and Evans in Wales are always going to be difficult!).

I do feel the birth and marriage certs you have are the correct ones, but I remember I couldn't find David on earlier censuses and I'm wondering if that was because he wasn't Evans previously. I'm always suspicious when someone has a surname as a middle name and then they keep remmebering and forgetting it from time to time! lol

Merry Monty Montgomery
24-10-08, 22:36
I don't know if it would be possible, but maybe you could try getting birth certs for (some of) Myfanwy's brothers and sisters? You might get a better idea if David's more usual name!

jackiex_x
24-10-08, 22:48
ok thanks for the advice,... that's food for thought! :-)