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  • Any ideas much appreciated.

    Hi all,

    I've mentioned my problem Baty ancestors before when all I knew was that my gran’s father was called William Baty, he was born in 1879 in either Cumberland or Northumberland & that he was a servant all his working life, becoming a Butler for the Hennesseys (as in the whiskey family). From his marriage certificate I also knew that his father was a labourer called John.

    Since then I have managed to get a copy of my gran’s birthday book from my aunt & learnt that his birthday was 3rd Aug 1879. My aunt also told me that there was a Liverpool connection with the Batys.

    I’ve now bought his birth certificate & know that he was born in Nicholforest, Cumberland & that his parents were John Baty, an agricultural labourer & Sarah Baty, formerly Wilson.

    If you look for William Baty on ancestry, all you get with similar details are a William A Baty, also born in Nicholforest, whose parents are John & Margaret & who becomes a blacksmith like his father & a William Baty born in Arthuret whose parents are James & Elizabeth.

    If, however, you change the surname to Beaty/Beattie you get the following 1881-1901 records.

    1881 England Census
    John Beattie born c 1854 Bewcastle, Cumberland
    Address: Swangs Cottage, Stapleton, Cumberland
    Occupation: Husbandman (Ag Lab)

    Household members:
    John Beattie 27 head
    Sarah Beattie 20 wife
    William Beattie 1


    1891 Scotland Census
    John Beaty born c1854 England
    Adress: Nether Whitlaw Side, Canonbie
    Occupation: Ag Lab

    Household Members:
    Archibald Beaty 4
    Hannah Beaty 7
    John Beaty 37 - head
    John Beaty 2
    Mary Ann Beaty 9
    Sarah Beaty 30 - wife
    William Beaty 11


    1901 England Census
    John Beaty born c1853, Bewcastle, Cumberland, England
    Adress: West Derby, Lancashire
    Occupation: Cattleman

    Household Members:
    Archibald Beaty 14
    Harry Beaty 8 months
    John Beaty 48 - head
    John Beaty 12
    Leonard Beaty 3
    Mary A Beaty 19
    Sarah Beaty 39 - wife


    1901 England Census
    William Beaty born c1880, Nicholforest, Cumberland
    Address: West Derby , Lancashire
    Occupation: Servant - says footman on original


    I have also found a marriage betweem a John Beaty & Sarah Wilson in Bewcastle, Cumberland on the 15th June 1878.

    To add to all this, if you search BMD for the childrens births you can find them all as Beaty registered one year before the census year (as is usual). This is except William who as William Beaty/Beattie I could not find.

    Do you think this is my family & if so it would appear that William's birth certificate had the name Baty as an error so why would he call himself it later in life. Alternatively do you think I've yet to find my Batys on census records.

    I was thinking of ringing Carlisle registry office to enquire about buying the marriage certificate of John Baty & Sarah Wilson & to see if they could look & see if the Sarah part of Sarah Wilson/Baty's signature looks the same on the marriage certificate and on Williams birth certificate (I have the GRO version but know she registered his birth).

    Any other suggestions would be gratefully recieved. I feel like a brick wall might be weakening slightly!!

    Many thanks
    Liz
    Last edited by Liz C; 05-10-08, 15:56. Reason: copyright

  • #2
    Sounds as though it is the right family, Liz. Surname spellings weren't as rigid then as they are now, and a lot of people couldn't read and write, so it was often up to the registrar to decide how to spell a surname. If it was pronounced Baty then it could just be that the registrar who did William's birth certificate thought that was how it should be spelt. Then if he was using his birth certificate as ID later on I suppose his surname would be copied from that.
    KiteRunner

    Every five years or so I look back on my life and I have a good... laugh"
    (Indigo Girls, "Watershed")

    Comment


    • #3
      Hi,

      Thats what I thought. The coincidences seem too great for it not to be. Though I do know that despite coincidences things may not be correct. On Williams birth certificate Sarah actually signs her name as Sarah Baty - there's definitely no E in it. I wonder whether it was due to her that the error occured - if indeed it did.

      It's weird though that William started to use the Baty name. My gran was Doris May Baty & when she was alive she always talked about the Batys & never the Beatys.

      Many thanks
      Liz

      Comment


      • #4
        I'd second KR's reply. It's only mechanical searching that needs surnames to be spelled consistently. Before computers and the like, surnames were spelled how people wanted to spell them. My regular footer illustrates the point!

        Christine
        Researching: BENNETT (Leics/Birmingham-ish) - incl. Leonard BENNETT in Detroit & Florida ; WARR/WOR, STRATFORD & GARDNER/GARNAR (Oxon); CHRISTMAS, RUSSELL, PAFOOT/PAFFORD (Hants); BIGWOOD, HAYLER/HAILOR (Sussex); LANCASTER (Beds, Berks, Wilts) - plus - COCKS (Spitalfields, Liverpool, Plymouth); RUSE/ROWSE, TREMEER, WADLIN(G)/WADLETON (Devonport, E Cornwall); GOULD (S Devon); CHAPMAN, HALL/HOLE, HORN (N Devon); BARRON, SCANTLEBURY (Mevagissey)...

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        • #5
          Thanks Christine,

          These ancestors do make life difficult for us. I'm just glad my gran's not alive today. Not sure she wouldn't have been too pleased if I told her that her family were probably Beatys and not Batys! I'm sure she would have had something to say on the matter.

          I believe William had a high opinion of himself as a butler. Maybe when he discovered that his name was given as Baty on his birth certificate he decided he liked it better & that it was a less common, more unusual name. I don't know - just a suggestion.

          Liz
          Last edited by Liz C; 05-10-08, 17:53.

          Comment


          • #6
            I'd say it does look like the right family. This looks like the parents marriage:

            Marriages Jun 1878
            Beaty John Longtown 10b 647 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
            Haugh Thomas Longtown 10b 647
            LITTLE Elizabeth Longtown 10b 647
            Wilson Sarah Longtown 10b 647 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

            If you wanted to be doubly/trebly sure you could get the birth cert for one of the other children from the census to check the mmn was also Wilson.

            Comment


            • #7
              I have myself been ploughing through various Eame, Eames, Emb, Eme, Emes,Emmes, Emms and Hems records in search of my Glos lot. Another branch of Glos family also has Malin, Mailins, Maling, Mealing, Malen, Melin and many other variants.

              Our ancestors lived in an age where they didn't have to fill in forms all the time as we do. If they did need some paperwork, chances are it would be filled in by an official anyway.

              Now we are so used to forms for passports, driving licence, taxes, to join anything etc that we are only too aware of correct spelling. Not so with our forebears.
              ~ with love from Little Nell~
              Chowns, Dunt, Emms, Mealing, Purvey & Smoothy

              Comment


              • #8
                Hi Merry,

                I was thinking of getting the marriage cert. I found a record of it on Family History online so know that John Beaty & Sarah Wilson do match as a couple. I was hoping (fingers crossed) that Carlisle reg office send out copies of originals & that the 'Sarah' part of Sarah's name might match on the marriage cert and on William's birth cert as she registered the birth and signed her name in full.

                Good suggestion about the siblings. I might try for Mary Anns birth certificate. She was the next child born after William so maybe if I'm lucky she might have been born before they moved.

                Many thanks
                Liz

                Comment


                • #9
                  When you ask for the cert specify that you want a copy of the original, or they might just send you out a typed copy.
                  ~ with love from Little Nell~
                  Chowns, Dunt, Emms, Mealing, Purvey & Smoothy

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Thanks Nell,

                    I'll do that.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Another possible reason for sticking with the "wrong" spelling is the education act of 1875!

                      It was then that surname spellings were fixed, by the schoolteacher who was teaching the child to write their name. Maybe he had to provide a BC to got to school, and the Head Teacher copied the spelling from that.

                      I too think it is the same family.

                      OC

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I have a few Batys in my tree so I know the Baty family was huge in Cumberland round the areas mentioned. So maybe the Beatties, having seen so many Batys bandied about, stuck with the majority version of the spelling?
                        Janexxx
                        To boldly go where no genealogist has gone before....

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          In a different neck of the woods, I have a Beata Harding. The vicar has huge problems spelling her name, which emerges as Beattie and Batti from time to time.
                          Phoenix - with charred feathers
                          Researching Skillings from Norfolk, Sworn from Salisbury and Adams in Malborough, Devon.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Thanks OC,

                            I've phoned Carlisle reg office & I'll be sending them a lovely long letter requesting a few certificates in the next few days. Unfortunately they don't send out scanned copies but at least they can check extra details for me.

                            Thanks Cool Blue,

                            I've found that out too. There are loads of Batys in Cumberland, a few in Northumberland & pretty much none elsewhere.

                            Thanks Phoenix,

                            Like you I've found unusual names can be both good and bad. Once you've found them they are great but finding them can be a problem. One of my ancestors, Zerah Chaplin, was transcribed as Gerald Chaplin on the 1891 census & on others usually as Terah. I still haven't found him in 1901!
                            Last edited by Liz C; 06-10-08, 20:18.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I think you're Batty! (sorry, but someone had to say it!!!)

                              As for unusual names - husband's Jewish gt gt grandfather was Zusman Hart. I've found him as Zuzman, Guzman, Luzman, Luisman, Tuesman - in fact the only place it says Zusman is his birth cert.
                              ~ with love from Little Nell~
                              Chowns, Dunt, Emms, Mealing, Purvey & Smoothy

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                i have a marriage of margaret baty and andrew palmer in 1789, bowness on solway, cumberland. but i cant find a baptism for her or him. she's certainly not under beattie.

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  These Batys can sure drive you Batty!!

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Sorry all,

                                    Just one more question. I promise I'll shut up after this one - honestly!

                                    I've bought certificates for William's siblings Mary Ann & Hannah, which certainly seem to back things up. Mary Ann is listed as Baty & the lady at Carlisle reg office informed me that Sarah signed her name as Beaty but the E was crossed out. Hannah was Beaty. On both certificates John's occupation is agriculteral labourer (as with Williams - my great grandfather)

                                    On the marriage certificate which is for John Beaty & Sarah Wilson, John's profession is given as yeoman. My question is would someone listed as a yeoman on their marriage certificate give their occupation as a ag lab on their son's birth certificate less than a year later?

                                    Many thanks
                                    Liz

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Originally posted by Liz C View Post
                                      On the marriage certificate which is for John Beaty & Sarah Wilson, John's profession is given as yeoman. My question is would someone listed as a yeoman on their marriage certificate give their occupation as a ag lab on their son's birth certificate less than a year later?
                                      It's possible - for instance, maybe he lost his farm in between? Or he was showing off on his marriage certificate, or there is a mistake on one of them.
                                      KiteRunner

                                      Every five years or so I look back on my life and I have a good... laugh"
                                      (Indigo Girls, "Watershed")

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Thanks KiteRunner,

                                        Thats what I thought. My other thought was that Sarah, who registered all the children, called him an ag lab. The lady at the reg office wasn't so sure though so I just wanted to check.

                                        Many thanks
                                        Liz

                                        Comment

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