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garstonite
27-09-08, 23:33
A little help please if anyone has the time.
my 3 x g grandparents were John Hartley Barker b 1825 Salford and Martha Collins b 1824 Dunham Massey...they married 26th december 1858 in Manchester cathedral...
John was b John Barker and his children were babtised HARTLEY.
I have Martha hartley b 1861
hannah hartley b 1863
john hartley b 1866
Iam trying to establish whether John Barkers Mother married again to a HARTLEY ..hence the middle name,or whether John was babtised John Hartley Barker (hartley being his mothers maiden name)...this proving difficult because its pre 1837...I`m goint to check all the Hartley marriages on lancs bmd...any advice welcome...cheers..allan
OKAY...can`t find a Hartley-Barker marriage...and I can`t find my 2 x g grandmothers birth either ..she was born Martha Hartley 1861..I have her as born in Dunham Massey (where her mother Mary was from)..this looks a little bit suspect now...can anyone find Martha Hartley b 1861 in Salford or Dunham Massey in the 1871 census with her siblings Hannah b 1863 and John b 1866 and parents John hartley barker and martha hartley barker....or Hartley ...cheers...allan

FenTiger
28-09-08, 03:59
1871 census

Hannah H Barker 8
John Barker 5
John Hartley Barker 36
Martha Ann Barker 10
Nancy Barker 43



Source Citation: Class: RG10; Piece: 4023; Folio: 50; Page: 2; GSU roll: 846323

Living Salford, Lancs

Name: Martha Ann Barker
Age: 10
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1861
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: John Hartley
Mother's Name: Nancy
Gender: Female
Where born: Salford, Lancashire, England

On Lancashire bmd for 1867 there is a marriage for John H Barker to Nancy Frances ( or Freances)- Manchester St John

On Free bmd there is a death for Martha Barker aged 34 - Salford 8d 76 - Sept 1867

FenTiger
28-09-08, 04:09
1861 census

John H Barker 26
Martha A H Barker 3 Mo
Martha H Barker 27

Source Citation: Class: RG9; Piece: 2925; Folio: 19; Page: 32; GSU roll: 543051

Name: John H Barker
Age: 26
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1835
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Martha H
Gender: Male
Where born: Salford

Civil Parish: Salford


Name: Martha A H Barker
Age: 3 Mo
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1861
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: John H
Mother's Name: Martha H
Gender: Female
Where born: Darsham, Cheshire, England ( On original image there is a mark through birthplace but it is Dunham)

garstonite
28-09-08, 05:45
good morning fen ..and thankyou very very much for taking the time to confirm that my mums nan WAS born in Dunham Massey..this info is valuable to me..I did know that John had remarried and my mum said he lived to a good age and was living in Runcorn in the late 1800`s because my nan used to visit him from Garston(about 9 miles away)..he would probably be on the 1891 census in runcorn but don`t know whether he would be under Barker or Hartley..I`m going back to my tree now to see if I can find the marriage of Martha Ann to see why its Hartley and not Barker...back soon and thanks again...allan;)

FenTiger
28-09-08, 05:55
Found on the igi

Martha Ann Barker Pedigree
Female


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Event(s):
Birth:
Christening: 10 MAR 1861 Bowdon, Cheshire, England

Death:
Burial:


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Parents:
Father: John Hartley Barker Family
Mother: Martha

FenTiger
28-09-08, 05:57
also on igi

. Hannah Barker - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Christening: 20 SEP 1863 Bowdon, Cheshire, England

garstonite
28-09-08, 06:03
okay I have the marriage of Joseph Ellis to Martha Hartley in 1887 at Liverpool St Simon 2129LP/7/285....on Lancs bmd but I can`t find my granny`s birth in garston/west derby on Lancs bmd...could someone try and find the Ellis family in the 1891 census for me please in Garston....the majority of Ellis births 1888-1900 in Liverpool are registered Kirkdale....could they have been in Kirkdale in the 1891 census...I know Joseph Ellis was born in a big family in Garston...cheers...allan:)

garstonite
28-09-08, 06:06
thanks Fen...I`ll check the igi myself later...so they WEREN`T born in Dunham Massey...have to alter my tree...I`m going to go on Cheshire parish records site to see if their babtisms are online...and to see how far Bowden is from Dunham Massey...thanks again ...allan:)

FenTiger
28-09-08, 06:14
Allan - all oh's lot are from that area, if born in Dunham or Dunham Massey the church is St Mary's Bowdon :D hope this helps

garstonite
28-09-08, 06:21
hiya Fen..the IRONY is that we went to Dunham Massey last summer to St Werburghs churchyard and found the Collins grave stones back to Abraham Collins b 1769....he was Martha Collins b 1824 grandfather...wonder if the St Werburghs and St Marys is a catholic/protestant churches...thanks..allan;)

FenTiger
28-09-08, 06:22
from genuki


DUNHAM MASSEY
A township in Bowdon Parish, Bucklow Hundred (SJ 7388). In 1920 the Oldfield Brow area was transferred to Altrincham civil parish, and further parts were lost in 1936. In 1974 Dunham Massey was transferred to the borough of Trafford in the county of Greater Manchester.
Includes the hamlets of Dunham Town, Dunham Woodhouses, Oldfield Brow (until 1920) and Sinderland Green.
The population was 872 in 1801, 1255 in 1851, 2644 in 1901 and 523 in 1951.
CHURCHES AND CHAPELS
Bowdon, St. Mary (C of E). The ancient parish church for Dunham Massey.
Dunham Massey, St. Margaret (C of E). Built 1855 to serve the township of Dunham Massey. Registers of Baptisms 1855-1935 and Marriages 1856-1932 have been deposited at the Cheshire Record Office.
Dunham Town, St. Mark (C of E). Back Lane/School Lane. Built 1864 as a chapel of ease to Bowdon, becoming a parish church in 1873. Registers of Baptisms 1866-1915, Marriages 1867-1983 and Burials 1921-1953 have been deposited at the Cheshire Record Office.
Altrincham, St. John the Evangelist (C of E). The parish church for part of Dunham Massey since 1867.
Dunham Massey, All Saints (C of E). New Street. A chapel of ease to St. Margaret's. Founded c.1890, closed 1911. Registers of Baptisms 1891-1911 are held at St. Margaret's.
Dunham Massey, Methodist Chapel (Primitive). Built 1875.
Sinderland Green, Methodist Chapel (Wesleyan). Built 1881.

garstonite
28-09-08, 06:25
where`s St Werburghs then ? lol...its definitely in Dunham Massey because we were in it last year ...a very old tiny church..only seats about 50 people..the verger was there and it was he who took us to the Collins headstones...allan:confused:

garstonite
28-09-08, 06:34
thanks Fen...I`m going to leave this for now...I`m positive I have the marriage cert for Joseph Ellis and Martha Ann Hartley...but its under the bed (one of those new lift up beds) and I`m sure my wife wouldn`t appreciate me disturbing her this early...2 of the grandkids stayed last night and she`s well and truly bushed...ha ha...allan:D.I`ll be back later with more info...

Little Nell
28-09-08, 10:06
This website says St Werburgh is near Dunham Massey
St Werburgh, Warburton : Visit Churches : The Churches Conservation Trust (http://www.visitchurches.org.uk/content.php?nID=11&churchID=310)

and this says there are two separate St Werburghs in the same area
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_Werburgh%27s_Church,_Warburton

The older church is west of the village; the newer one was built 1883-5 and is southwest of the village.

Little Nell
28-09-08, 10:12
I'm wondering whether John Hartley Barker was baptised as John Hartley Barker or whether he was illegitimate and baptised John Hartley; his mother then married a Barker and he took that name too.

garstonite
28-09-08, 10:30
you are correct Nell...we went to both St Werburghs churches..the first one we went to was about 100 yrs old and rather large...the second was where my ancestors are buried and was very small and probably 4-5 hundred years old...as for John Hartley Barker, it will probably remain a mystery because his birth was pre 1837...allan;);)

Phoenix
28-09-08, 12:13
If John married twice, it would be worth getting both marriage certificates, to see whether the father's info is identical on both. If John were illegitimate, the odds are that Hartley was his father's surname. Again, if he were born before 1834, then there may be a bastardy bond floating around for him, probably in the local record office.

garstonite
28-09-08, 13:56
thanks pheonix...never thought of a bastardy bond...I`ll have a root around...cheers...allan;)

garstonite
03-06-09, 07:03
I know this has been a while since the last post on this but could someone please see if they can find Martha Collins b 1824 in the 1837 1851 census returns for Dunham Massey and whether it has an address for Martha Collins...her mother was Martha Collins(nee Haslam b abt 1800) if it gives where she was born(the mum)...I have ONE sister named ANN Collins b 1825...if there are any other family it would be a nice surprise...the father was Abraham b 1796(I think Dunham Massey....in the meantime I am going on the Tithe Survey to see if the family owned any land there....thanks a lot....allan;)
ADDED...in the 1835 Tithe Land Survey of Dunham Massey it has Abraham Collins as ...Garden...1 Rood ...6 Perches....I think he only had an allotment ??....lol...allan