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Birth Cert Mystery - Help Needed!

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  • Birth Cert Mystery - Help Needed!

    I've just got the copy birth cert for my elusive half great uncle George Johnson.

    I always knew he was illegimate and his father's identity is a family mystery. I didn't expect to see a father named but on the birth cert the name Charles Henry West is written in the box for father's name but then it has been crossed out. Next to each part of the crossed out name someone has written the suffixes 11, 12 and 13. Then at the edge of the cert the words eleven, twelve and thirteen are written out in full and after each "CR".

    Does anone know what this means? Is it just the way they made corrections?

    Also how usual is it for a name to be written and then crossed out? I've certainly not seen this before.

    Thanks in advance.
    Last edited by Louise; 29-09-08, 10:20.
    Louise

    "If you obey all the rules, you miss all the fun."

  • #2
    Yes the numbers refer to the number of errors the registrar had made in the registrar, which then had to be listed in a log of errors, and the initials would be those of the registrar who corrected the register. It would be great to think that the crossed out name was of your great uncle father (perhaps the registrar wrote down what he was told then crossed it out when he realised parents weren't married and the father wasn't present so shouldn't be named).
    Problem is it could just as easily be that the registrar was tired and simply copied the father's name from the next entry up and then crossed it out when he realised his mistake.
    Last edited by JudithM; 27-09-08, 12:32.
    Judith passed away in October 2018

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    • #3
      You could phone the relevant registration office and ask them why the amendments were made.

      They might tell you! Depends on whether the person concerned is still alive, I suppose.

      OC

      Comment


      • #4
        Thanks for the help.

        The record is from 1900 so I'm not sure they'll know why a correction was made but I will try phoning next week just in case.

        Meanwhile I'll look up any likely looking Charles Henry West in the 1901 census to see if there could be a link but I guess we'll never know!
        Louise

        "If you obey all the rules, you miss all the fun."

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        • #5
          Louise

          The reason for the corrections will still be in the registrar's log.

          OC

          Comment


          • #6
            Thanks OC. That's good news and definitely makes a phone call worthwhile even if all it does is rule out Charles West as the possible father!
            Last edited by Louise; 27-09-08, 18:01.
            Louise

            "If you obey all the rules, you miss all the fun."

            Comment


            • #7
              Louise, if you look up the birth registration on FreeBMD and then click on the page number, it should tell you the other births on the same page and you can see if there is a West on there or not.
              KiteRunner

              Every five years or so I look back on my life and I have a good... laugh"
              (Indigo Girls, "Watershed")

              Comment


              • #8
                The plot thickens!

                According to FreeBMD there are no West births on the same page. In fact there was only one West birth registered that quarter in Bolton and according to the 1901 census it looks like her father was Robert West and not the crossed out Charles Henry West on my great uncle's birth cert.

                I can't wait for Monday to come so that I can phone up and hopefully find out a bit more. I love finding a good mystery to unravel but it is frustrating when you have to wait for records offices to open!!!

                Thanks again for the suggestions.
                Louise

                "If you obey all the rules, you miss all the fun."

                Comment


                • #9
                  Don't forget to let us know what you learn. I am really intrigued, or should that be nosy lol.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Me too!
                    ~ with love from Little Nell~
                    Chowns, Dunt, Emms, Mealing, Purvey & Smoothy

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                    • #11
                      LOL!

                      I haven't been doing any research or visiting this site for the last year as I changed jobs and have been away a lot. I'd remembered how helpful people here were but I'd forgotten about how nosy you were! I guess we are all a bit nosy to do this!!! :D:D:D I certainly find other people's family stories just as interesting as my own.

                      I'll definitely be back with an update after I've spoken to the Registration Office.
                      Louise

                      "If you obey all the rules, you miss all the fun."

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        UPDATE!

                        I've just finished talking to the local registry office. They were very surprised when they realised that I had a copy of the certificate with the numbered crossing out on it. They said that if I had ordered it from them I would have just seen a blank for father's name.

                        The lady I spoke to explained that it was a correction made at the time that the mother reported the birth and that she had originally given a name and then said that it wasn't to go on the certificate. There's no evidence that this is the father but it is looking possible.

                        I find it very interesting that the local office wouldn't have given the correction but that the GRO did! This family mystery just gets weirder and weirder.

                        If anyone fancies helping me try to locate the possible father the info is below. I've had no luck looking so far.

                        Birth: George Johnson, Jun 1900 in Little Lever, Bolton
                        Mother: Fanny Johnson, born 1879 in Glossop, Derbyshire

                        Father named as Charles Henry West on birth cert and then crossed out.

                        Fanny and baby George are living with her father George Johnson (a labourer on the railway) in Little Lever, Bolton in 1901.

                        The Johnson family were in Glossop in earlier censuses.

                        Any comments, advice or clues will be most gratefully received.
                        Louise

                        "If you obey all the rules, you miss all the fun."

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Well, as I understand it, if she gave the father's name but he wasn't present when she registered the birth, and she wasn't married to him, then his name shouldn't have been put on the birth certificate anyway.
                          KiteRunner

                          Every five years or so I look back on my life and I have a good... laugh"
                          (Indigo Girls, "Watershed")

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Yes, I agree, I think the Registrar wrote the father's name, and something about her demeanour made him ask if she was married to the father. As she wasn't, then his name couldn't go on the cert. Seems fairly likely he WAS the father, though!

                            But how interesting that this must mean the ORIGINAL register found its way to the GRO. I always thought the local Registrar hung onto the original register and copied it to send to the GRO.

                            Unless there was a confusion and a clerk sent the wrong register? But no, the quarterly returns were sent on loose sheets I think.

                            OC

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                            • #15
                              Can someone tell me what counties or areas it would be best to search for Charles????

                              I know he could have come from anywhere, but my English geography is still bad. lol.

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                That's great if you fancy taking a look!

                                I have been focusing on Lancashire (where George was born) or Derbyshire where his mother was from (Glossop) and went back to to marry my great grandfather in 1905.

                                I guess any nieghbouring counties are possible such as Cheshire, Shropshire and maybe even Yorkshire but in reality Charles could have come from anywhere. He certainly didn't seem inclined to hang around!!!

                                I think it may be tricky to find him with so little information but I am curious and if nothing else would like to narrow down some possibilities.
                                Louise

                                "If you obey all the rules, you miss all the fun."

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  I have a transcription copy from the NSW birth register, which gives the fathers name which is then crossed out. In NSW, we have three professional transcription agents who are allowed to transcribe the original registers, and mine always includes all comments.

                                  On my transcribed certificate, it has the fathers name but has a line through it and the comment "fathers name given in error, they are not married" written in the column. If I had ordered a certified copy from the BDM Register, I don't think this little gem of information would have been included, as it was not part of the official certificate.

                                  But it certainly explained a lot !!.

                                  I wonder how often unmarried mothers gave the name of the baby's father, which was entered into the original register, but then crossed out or altered, because it could not be used officially. Now if you order an official certificate, you won't get the "unofficial" information. I guess it would be like ordering a certificate for an adopted person in their new name, no details from original included, but it would remain there in the original register.....if only you could locate it.

                                  Diane
                                  Diane
                                  Sydney Australia
                                  Avatar: Reuben Edward Page and Lilly Mary Anne Dawson

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    There is a freebmd birth registration for Charles Henry West, Mar Q 1875, Liverpool, which would be in the right time-frame.

                                    And he seems to be in Kirkdale, Lancs as Charles H West with parents John and Mary A. It might be worth tracking him through 1891 and 1901 to see where he is and if he could possibly be THE Charles Henry West. I know there are lots of others, but its place to start, then you wil have to eliminate all the others one by one !!.
                                    Diane
                                    Sydney Australia
                                    Avatar: Reuben Edward Page and Lilly Mary Anne Dawson

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Hi Louise,

                                      I've haven't got very far with this either, however, I noticed on the 1901 census that George senior works as a labourer in a cotton mill not the railway, and it states Fanny was born in Hadfield, Manchester, am I looking at the correct census?

                                      Originally posted by Louise View Post
                                      UPDATE!

                                      I've just finished talking to the local registry office. They were very surprised when they realised that I had a copy of the certificate with the numbered crossing out on it. They said that if I had ordered it from them I would have just seen a blank for father's name.

                                      The lady I spoke to explained that it was a correction made at the time that the mother reported the birth and that she had originally given a name and then said that it wasn't to go on the certificate. There's no evidence that this is the father but it is looking possible.

                                      I find it very interesting that the local office wouldn't have given the correction but that the GRO did! This family mystery just gets weirder and weirder.

                                      If anyone fancies helping me try to locate the possible father the info is below. I've had no luck looking so far.

                                      Birth: George Johnson, Jun 1900 in Little Lever, Bolton
                                      Mother: Fanny Johnson, born 1879 in Glossop, Derbyshire

                                      Father named as Charles Henry West on birth cert and then crossed out.

                                      Fanny and baby George are living with her father George Johnson (a labourer on the railway) in Little Lever, Bolton in 1901.

                                      The Johnson family were in Glossop in earlier censuses.

                                      Any comments, advice or clues will be most gratefully received.
                                      Jules

                                      I'anson of Lincolnshire and Yorkshire. Bannister of Lincolnshire. Burnett of Northumberland. Carter of Sussex and Hampshire. Goldring of Sussex and Hampshire. Fitzgerald of Goodness knows where. Smith of Yorkshire and Lincolnshire. Dixon of Lincolnshire. Payne of Hampshire

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                                      • #20
                                        Hi Jules,

                                        I'm at work now so I can't check my records but I know for sure that Fanny was born in Glossop. However, they often referred to Hadfield which, as far as I can tell, is a part of Glossop. I'm not sure why the 1901 says Manchester!

                                        Regarding her father, I could well have got that wrong. I thought he worked on the railways but that could be my mind playing tricks as I do have the census in front of me! If you have George senior, Fanny and George Junior in Little Lever in 1901 then that is the right group. Sorry for any confusion.
                                        Louise

                                        "If you obey all the rules, you miss all the fun."

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