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View Full Version : Help!! Proving my link to "fame"........



Glen in Tinsel Knickers
18-09-08, 11:44
I never quite got round to working out my link to someone famous, i could just contact someone who most of us know and ask what it is but where's the fun in that??

Anyone fancy a challenge and a bit of a google and snoop to help link the 3rd marriage for my 2xgrt grandfather to a rellie of Nelson?

Mary from Italy
18-09-08, 12:08
Go on, then :)

Glen in Tinsel Knickers
18-09-08, 12:17
Ooh Mary, can your good run hold out for long enough? :D

Apparently the link to Nelson is via the Waller family. I checked Ancestry a while ago and there is a tree but the tree owner hasn't replied to messages. I also have them listed on a tree and corrected the OWT details today (deaths were recorded as USA)


Maria Waller b11/11/1821, Holkham, Norfolk.

She married George Hay 8/12/1871 at the Register Office, District of Walsingham, Norfolk. Recorded as a spinster, father noted as Charles but no occuption given.

George and Maria are buried together in Wells next the Sea, Norfolk, George (a coastguard) died first and Maria is named in his will.

Presumably it's a backwards and across connection somehow, i did have a google for trees and pedigree stuff for Nelson but can't find a reference to the Waller surname anywhere.

Glen in Tinsel Knickers
18-09-08, 12:21
I should add that Maria appears in some GR trees, again i have tried to contact the tree owners with little success, it seems the majority of the info is based on one tree and folks don't want to divulge anything, plus i have deleted myself from there now anyway.

Mary from Italy
18-09-08, 12:24
That's a surprisingly late marriage for Maria.

Have you got them on any of the censuses, to save duplicating research you've already done?

Mary from Italy
18-09-08, 12:29
Possible baptism for Maria:

County: Norfolk
Place: Holkham
Church: St Withberga
Register Number: 236
Date Of Birth:
Baptism Date: 11 Nov 1821
Forename: Maria
Sex: F
Father Forename: Charles
Mother Forename: Susan
Father Surname: WALLER
Mother Surname:
Abode :
Father Occupation: Labourer
Notes:
File Number: 2034

FreeReg Search Results (http://freereg.rootsweb.com/cgi/SearchResults.pl?RecordType=Baptisms&RecordID=728523)

Glen in Tinsel Knickers
18-09-08, 12:31
George was married to his 2nd (previous) wife in the 1871, i think Maria was a char woman or FS in one of the large houses around the area of Walsingham but haven't pinned her down as yet.

KiteRunner
18-09-08, 12:32
Possible marriage for Maria's parents on FreeREG is Charles Waller and Susanna Oxenborow Spooner, 13 Mar 1812 at St Nicholas, Wells-next-the-Sea, groom's parish given as Holkam.

Glen in Tinsel Knickers
18-09-08, 12:34
I think this one is Maria in the 1871

- Ancestry.co.uk (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&rank=1&gsfn=maria&gsln=waller&=&f1=&f2=&f4=&f18__n=&f12__n=&rg_81004011__date=1812&rs_81004011__date=0&f27=&f14=norfolk&f15=holkham&_8000C002=&_80008002=&_80018002=&f7=&f8=&f9=&gskw=&prox=1&db=uki1871&ti=5538&ti.si=0&gss=angs-d&pcat=35&fh=6&recid=19654907&recoff=1+2+17+18)

Mary from Italy
18-09-08, 12:35
Possible marriage (IGI, extracted):

Charles Waller
Male

Marriages:
Spouse: Susannah Oxenborow Spooner
Marriage: 10 MAR 1812 Wells Next The Sea, Norfolk, England

I would guess this might be your connection, because a very quick search brought up a Horatio Nelson Spooner. Haven't had time to investigate yet, though.

Mary from Italy
18-09-08, 12:40
One of those weird entries on the IGI that doesn't say either extracted or submitted:

Susan Oxenborrow Spooner
Female

Event(s):
Birth:
Christening: 15 MAR 1793 Wells Next The Sea, Norfolk, England

Parents:
Father: William Spooner
Mother: Margaret Oxenborrow

Can't find that baptism on FreeReg.

Glen in Tinsel Knickers
18-09-08, 12:41
61 for Maria? bottom of page (alternative name entered in the index is Walton)

- Ancestry.co.uk (http://content.ancestry.co.uk/iexec/?htx=view&r=5538&dbid=8767&iid=NFKRG9_1246_1249-0993&fn=Maria&ln=Walton&st=r&ssrc=&pid=15915447)

KiteRunner
18-09-08, 12:44
Yes, it is on FreeREG, date of birth 14 Mar 1793.

Glen in Tinsel Knickers
18-09-08, 12:46
51 for Maria?

If these are all her it seems she prefered working for older folks.

- Ancestry.co.uk (http://content.ancestry.co.uk/iexec/?htx=view&r=5538&dbid=8860&iid=NFKHO107_1826_1827-0424&fn=Maria&ln=Waller&st=r&ssrc=&pid=5322179)

KiteRunner
18-09-08, 12:46
Siblings of Susan listed on FreeREG: Charlotte 1789, Edward 1791, Elizabeth 1795 and William 1798.

KiteRunner
18-09-08, 12:49
Marriage of Susan's parents: John Spooner of Burnham Westgate and Margaret Oxenborow, St Nicholas, Wells-next-the-Sea, 5 May 1789. (From FreeREG). Witnesses Charlotte Oxenborow and Elizabeth Shepard.

Glen in Tinsel Knickers
18-09-08, 12:49
'41 seems to be the same place but different household, Maria is top of page, remainder of household is on previous image

- Ancestry.co.uk (http://content.ancestry.co.uk/iexec/?htx=view&r=5538&dbid=8978&iid=NFKHO107_772_773-0319&fn=Maria&ln=Waller&st=r&ssrc=&pid=15991862)

Mary from Italy
18-09-08, 12:49
Letter from Nelson on the Victory to a Lieut Waller in 1804:

Nelson, the New Letters: The New Letters - Google Book Search (http://books.google.com/books?pg=PA78-IA1&dq=%22horatio+nelson%22+waller&lr=&client=opera&sig=ACfU3U3ZL0VwsbZI1qI7NqZEm4-Ua9y98Q&id=_itX2onruHIC&output=html)

KiteRunner
18-09-08, 12:52
That Horatio Nelson Spooner on the IGI is supposed to be born in Plymouth, Massachusetts, so he's probably not connected. Unless there's another one?

Mary from Italy
18-09-08, 12:56
Yes, just seen that, although I wouldn't absolutely rule him out.

Mary from Italy
18-09-08, 13:02
There's a tree for Nelson here:

Battle of Trafalgar: Nelson's Navy (http://www.paintedships.com/nelson-family-tree.asp)

Don't tell Libby, but there's an Eyre in there..

Glen in Tinsel Knickers
18-09-08, 13:05
:confused:

Mary posted

"One of those weird entries on the IGI that doesn't say either extracted or submitted:

Susan Oxenborrow Spooner
Female

Event(s):
Birth:
Christening: 15 MAR 1793 Wells Next The Sea, Norfolk, England

Parents:
Father: William Spooner
Mother: Margaret Oxenborrow

Can't find that baptism on FreeReg."

Seems a match for entry Kite found

"Yes, it is on FreeREG, date of birth 14 Mar 1793."

Also from free reg


"Marriage of Susan's parents: John Spooner of Burnham Westgate and Margaret Oxenborow, St Nicholas, Wells-next-the-Sea, 5 May 1789. (From FreeREG). Witnesses Charlotte Oxenborow and Elizabeth Shepard"


So is dad called John or William or are we looking at a freaky co-incedence of names?

Mary from Italy
18-09-08, 13:08
This is the only Waller from Norfolk who was at Trafalgar:

Henry Waller aged 20 born in Thetford, Norfolk, England.
Ship: HMS Entrepenante
Rank/Rating: Able Seaman

Service details
Comments: Per warrant
HMS Entrepenante
Ship's pay book number: (SB 14)
8 August 1805
Rank/rating: Landsman

9 August 1805

The National Archives | Trafalgar ancestors (http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/trafalgarancestors/)

KiteRunner
18-09-08, 13:11
Oh, sorry, Glen, I wasn't paying close attention to detail! *Slaps wrist*. I blame the way FreeREG displays the info for a match.... I'll just check...

Glen in Tinsel Knickers
18-09-08, 13:14
Oh, sorry, Glen, I wasn't paying close attention to detail! *Slaps wrist*. I blame the way FreeREG displays the info for a match.... I'll just check...

I know what you mean, i have chased a few through the results only to find they are not who i thought.

After seeing the work done on the massive death thread i decided to jot stuff down as we go (hoping to keep track and not get :confused:) and chanced on the different names.

Mary from Italy
18-09-08, 13:18
Lots of Wallers here, but I've had a quick look, and can't see anyone we're interested in:

Norfolk Transcription Archive - Surname List - W (http://www.doun.org/transcriptions/surnames.php?letter=W)

KiteRunner
18-09-08, 13:23
Okay, going through FreeREG for the baptisms of the "siblings" I listed, William's father is Joseph! Elizabeth's is John, Susan's is William, Edward's is John, and Charlotte's is William. Looking at other baptisms in the same place, there was a William Spooner around at about the same time but his wife was Ann Alyard. I would think that the vicar either got in a muddle or had illegible handwriting, because since the mother's maiden name is given on the baptisms it must be the same couple on all five.

Glen in Tinsel Knickers
18-09-08, 13:31
Lots of Wallers here, but I've had a quick look, and can't see anyone we're interested in:

Norfolk Transcription Archive - Surname List - W (http://www.doun.org/transcriptions/surnames.php?letter=W)

Same here, over 500 entries in the Spooner name too, interestingly there is next to nothing for Oxenborrow and variants.

KiteRunner
18-09-08, 13:32
There's a possible baptism for Margaret Oxenborrow on the IGI, 24 Feb 1757 Wells-next-the-Sea, parents Edward and Rachel, but it's one of those "I" batches...

Mary from Italy
18-09-08, 13:35
There's a Waller tree here that includes Charles and Susannah, Maria and her siblings, and gives Charles' parents as Nathaniel Waller and Elizabeth Atkinson:

The Wallers of Norfolk, England:Information about Susannah ?Oxenborrow Spooner (http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/w/a/l/Saffron-Waller/WEBSITE-0001/UHP-0009.html)

Glen in Tinsel Knickers
18-09-08, 13:50
There's a Waller tree here that includes Charles and Susannah, Maria and her siblings, and gives Charles' parents as Nathaniel Waller and Elizabeth Atkinson:

The Wallers of Norfolk, England:Information about Susannah ?Oxenborrow Spooner (http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/w/a/l/Saffron-Waller/WEBSITE-0001/UHP-0009.html)

I will have to look at that one closely, it is one of the contacts from GR that is very cagey with her info.

Right, thanks for the help to date, Mrs G has just phoned, she needs picking up, the car just failed the MOT :( so i have to nip and fetch her

Mary from Italy
18-09-08, 13:51
Marriage of Susan's parents: John Spooner of Burnham Westgate and Margaret Oxenborow, St Nicholas, Wells-next-the-Sea, 5 May 1789. (From FreeREG). Witnesses Charlotte Oxenborow and Elizabeth Shepard.


Hmm.

Nelson was born at Burnham Thorpe, about 2 miles away.

Mary from Italy
18-09-08, 13:59
I shall have to go and do some work now - will check back later.

Mary from Italy
18-09-08, 17:16
There's a possible baptism for Margaret Oxenborrow on the IGI, 24 Feb 1757 Wells-next-the-Sea, parents Edward and Rachel, but it's one of those "I" batches...

I've found three more children, possibly to a second marriage of Edward's, also in an I batch:

Susannah 1765, Sarah 1767 and Charlotte 1772, children of Edward and Susannah Oxenborow, all baptised at Wells next the Sea. In view of the names, I would think they're a good bet.

There's a will for an Edward Oxenborow on the TNA site:

Online Document PROB 11/1652
Will of Edward Oxenborow Gentleman Wells , Norfolk . Will of Edward Oxenborow Gentleman Wells , Norfolk Date: 1822.
Source: DocumentsOnline (images of documents from The National Archives)

The burial isn't on FHOL.

Edward seems to have been some kind of maritime agent - he had dealings with the Admiralty Court in 1803:

Gazette Website: PDF Navigator (http://beta.gazettes-online.co.uk/ViewPDF.aspx?pdf=15568&geotype=London&gpn=315&type=ArchivedIssuePage&all=oxenborow&exact=&atleast=&similar=)

There are three similar notices.

Mary from Italy
18-09-08, 17:28
FreeReg also has an Edward Oxenborow, bap 1741, son of Edward and Rachel, as well as the baptisms of Susannah and Sarah, children of Edward and Susannah.

In view of the differences in dates, I would guess Edward 1741 and Margaret 1757 might possibly be siblings, and Charlotte, Susannah and Sarah the children of the Edward bap. 1741.

Mary from Italy
18-09-08, 17:46
Edward Oxenborow married Susanna Hill at Wells in 1764, which fits with Susannah, Sarah and Charlotte being their children:

Search Results (http://freereg.rootsweb.com/cgi/SearchResults.pl?RecordType=Marriages&RecordID=169087)

Mary from Italy
18-09-08, 17:52
FreeReg also has lots of burials.

Rachel Oxenborow, widow, died in 1796 aged 75. Her maiden name was Bretton. I would guess she was the mother of Edward bp 1741.

Search Results (http://freereg.rootsweb.com/cgi/SearchResults.pl?RecordType=Burials&RecordID=356091)

An Edward Oxenborow, shown as both widower and married man, died in 1821 aged 80. This will be the Edward bap 1741, and the one who left the will.

Search Results (http://freereg.rootsweb.com/cgi/SearchResults.pl?RecordType=Burials&RecordID=62211)

Mary from Italy
18-09-08, 17:54
An Edward Oxenborow Senior died in 1767, no age given; this was presumably Rachel's husband.

Search Results (http://freereg.rootsweb.com/cgi/SearchResults.pl?RecordType=Burials&RecordID=357454)

These burials were all at Wells next the Sea, and there are one or two other Oxenborow burials there too.

Mary from Italy
18-09-08, 18:03
Anne Oxenborow wife of Edward died in 1761; she was probably the first wife of the Edward bap 1741.

Search Results (http://freereg.rootsweb.com/cgi/SearchResults.pl?RecordType=Burials&RecordID=357735)

Mary from Italy
18-09-08, 18:08
Susannah Oxenborrow died in 1795, aged 61; she was probably the second wife of Edward bap 1741 and mother of Susannah, Sarah and Charlotte.

Search Results (http://freereg.rootsweb.com/cgi/SearchResults.pl?RecordType=Burials&RecordID=356189)

Glen in Tinsel Knickers
18-09-08, 19:04
Had a snoop around a couple of Ancestry trees re the Waller surname and compared them to the site the GR contact has online.

No great suprises to find some huge differences, the names often match but death dates vary hugely, perhaps suprisingly none of them have anything in the Oxenburow family except the Charles Waller/ Sussanah Spooner-Oxenburow marriage in 1812.

Death dates for Susannah vary from pre 1837 to post 1860 but nothing is sourced, Charles seems consistent throughout, death being recorded in 1877.

What is suprising is that Maria is missing from two trees and confused with a sister in another (wrong sister married to wrong spouse......namely my 2xgrt g/f!!!)

quiffdo
18-09-08, 19:20
Ive been reading this thread with intrest and just out of intrest are you trying to link your family in with Horatio Nelson's?

Danny

Glen in Tinsel Knickers
18-09-08, 19:52
A former GR and FTF member links with my tree via the George Hay/Maria Waller marriage. George is my 2xgrt g/f and Maria is the grt grandaunt of the other person.

The Waller family link with Horatio Nelson in some form or other, that much i do know, what i don't know is how the connection arises.

I wouldn't link by blood just via the marriage (though one surname i have in another line did marry into a Walley family in the same area and that Walley family may actually be Waller looking at some stuff found here today)

Mary from Italy
18-09-08, 20:04
Where did you get the information about the link, Glen? From the GR member?

Glen in Tinsel Knickers
18-09-08, 20:09
Mary

We originally discovered the link whilst still on GR, it's Horatia (remember her?) and myself who link through the Hay/Waller connection.

I just wonder if it is a very convoluted link or something more straightforwards

Mary from Italy
18-09-08, 20:12
Oh, yes, isn't she on GR any more?

Glen in Tinsel Knickers
18-09-08, 20:14
Not any more, (neither am i though).

Mary from Italy
18-09-08, 20:49
Just found a rather curious piece of information. One of Lord Nelson's titles was Duca di Bronte (Duke of Bronte), a small town in Sicily.

I was curious about the name, and apparently Charlotte Bronte's father Patrick changed his name from Prunty/Brunty to Bronte because Nelson was a hero of his, and he also thought it sounded posher.

Mary from Italy
18-09-08, 21:11
It might be worth your while investigating the Captain Waller who commanded the Emerald at the battle of Santa Cruz de Tenerife, where Nelson lost his arm. There are loads of references to him on Google, but I haven't found out where he came from.

Battle of Santa Cruz de Tenerife (1797 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Santa_Cruz_de_Tenerife_(1797))

Glen in Tinsel Knickers
18-09-08, 21:35
Thanks Mary

Fiddling with the searches today seems to have paid off, i have wangled a couple of other Norfolk results from freereg that i had struggled with before so it's been a good day really.

I will have a play with some searches and some of the names/details you have discovered for me, there are a few things i want to look into as they look quite promising.

Also thanks to Kiterunner for her help today too, much appreciated.

Olde Crone Holden
18-09-08, 21:58
Scuse me! Scuse me!

My relative was on the Emerald and had his right arm amputated on the same day and right after Nelson! It is in the surgeon's log - Nelson first, James Holden next. Wound was dressed with flour to staunch a haemorrhage (both men)

(Just remember my connection Glen when you are claiming the Nelson millions)

OC

Val and George
19-09-08, 00:20
Do you realise OC - they could have used the same knife for both men?
You can't be closer connected than that we should have thought.
Sort of 'Blood Brother's'
Congratulations! We bow to your illustrious past.

Olde Crone Holden
19-09-08, 00:40
*smirks modestly*

Oh, 'tis nothing really, a mere coincidence.

BUT - it solved a 200 year old mystery!!!! James Holden vanished from home, leaving behind a wife and two children. He was never seen again and his wife received permission from the Bishop to remarry as a deserted wife.

Lots of Holden researchers had wondered what had happened to him. I nearly fell down dead when I saw a photo of the surgeon's log in a book, and a very kind lady looked him up at Kew for me.

It was the same man. He had been pressganged on his way to market. He doesn't seem to have minded much as he served for nine years before being injured. He was discharged in Tenerife and received a pension for many years.

The surgeon's log is interesting and gives a diet sheet for BOTH men - weak tea, broth and meat soups.

Considering the conditions in which the surgeon must have operated, it is a miracle they both survived and it says a lot about his skill that they did. I also thought how fascinating they stopped the bleeding with flour - can you imagine the maggoty flour they must have had available? But it worked!

OC

Harrys mum
19-09-08, 01:03
Aren't they using maggots in hospitals again to eat infection??


OC....bet you didn't come across any Kirkbys there......they would have been sitting back home sweetly giving orders lol.

Kit
19-09-08, 05:46
From a book I've read OC maggots only eat rotting flesh so they don't do any harm. (not that I want maggots crawling on me. uugh) Maybe flour helps stop things sticking to the wound.

Glen I'm not sure I'd be of any help today but I skipped to the end to see if there was any success yet. Good luck though

Glen in Tinsel Knickers
19-09-08, 16:15
Waits for Heather to add some little snippet about an ancestor being on photographed/shipwrecked/owning the severed limb or something similiar.

Thinking about it i do have a rellie who was noted for designing and manufacturing surgical instruments in those early days, i have seen some pics of things he designed/made, all pretty gruesome and not for the faint hearted.

Mary from Italy
19-09-08, 18:00
Waits for Heather to add some little snippet about an ancestor being on photographed/shipwrecked/owning the severed limb or something similiar.


I understand that James Holden's severed arm was passed down as an heirloom in the Holden-Horstead family, but shrank over the centuries to such an extent that it could only be put to use as a canine prosthesis...

Glen in Tinsel Knickers
19-09-08, 19:16
I understand that James Holden's severed arm was passed down as an heirloom in the Holden-Horstead family, but shrank over the centuries to such an extent that it could only be put to use as a canine prosthesis...

Of course, how foolish of me to forget such a well documented story.........googles Holden+Horstead+Heirloom

Uncle John
19-09-08, 19:54
You'll find that it was actually handed down from father to son as an aid to the family trait of nose-picking.

Olde Crone Holden
19-09-08, 20:18
You'll all change your tune and be a bit more respectful when I feature in the first episode of

Who Do You Think You Are - the ordinary people (well, not really ordinary, but not a well-known celebrity until now

(That's WDYTYA -TOPWNROBNAWKCUN, for those who want to look out for it in the TV listings)

OC)

Glen in Tinsel Knickers
19-09-08, 20:33
You'll all change your tune and be a bit more respectful when I feature in the first episode of

Who Do You Think You Are - the ordinary people (well, not really ordinary, but not a well-known celebrity until now

(That's WDYTYA -TOPWNROBNAWKCUN, for those who want to look out for it in the TV listings)

OC)

That nearly didn't get past the FTF censorship thingy.

Uncle John
19-09-08, 21:30
Ooo-errr - Little Lady Fauntleroy is throwing her toys out of her pram.

Jessbowbag
19-09-08, 21:39
Bit of a side snippet - we love Wells next the sea, although ( was it Mary?) says Nelson was born at Thorpe thinggy, Wells next Sea does claim him as born there.

WendyPusey
19-09-08, 22:02
He was actually born at Burnham Thorpe. Lovely place.

Mary from Italy
19-09-08, 22:14
I did notice while I was looking at FreeReg that there were a few Nelsons born in Wells next the Sea.

Glen in Tinsel Knickers
19-09-08, 23:19
My 2xgrt g/f did find himself in the assorted Burnham villages just before he married Maria, mind you, he did get posted around the country with the coastguard work but managed twenty odd years in Norfolk and Suffolk.

Rose44
24-03-10, 12:47
What is the answer to the question of which man is the father of Susan Oxenborow Spooner? Is it John or William?
I think it is John.
Rosemary Bayley

Kit
25-03-10, 02:51
Rosemary welcome to FTF.

Until Glenn makes an appearance why do you think the father is John?

I remember nothing of this thread except for OC interrupting with her James Holden and his loss of arm story.