Different surnames !!

[Kathlyn Maudesley]

:(I have found a birth on the Mormon site that I think may be "mine", but I need some guidance as to why the fathers surname is different to the child and why no mother is named?

Kathlyn

[KiteRunner]

Kathlyn, can you post up the details, please, as it's hard to know what the explanation might be without looking at the entry.

[Heather Positive Thinker]

Sounds like it may be a submitted entry ?

[Kathlyn Maudesley]

Hi Kiterunner,

Here are the details:-

Thomas Owen, married 10th Sept 1878, Kirkby, Lancs.

Wife was Ellen Mawdsley

Father of Thomas was Thomas Tinsley

Kathlyn

[Elaine ..Spain]

Have you found Thomas and Ellen together on a census - if so what is Thomas year and place of birth?

[KiteRunner]

I'm a bit confused - you say you've found a birth on the IGI, but it is a marriage, isn't it? The marriage entry is an "extracted" record, so it looks as though the details are taken from the marriage certificate. It says that the name of Thomas Owen's father is Thomas Tinsley. Of course, if you want to be sure then you could order a copy of the marriage certificate from the GRO or Lancashire BMD to check if that is what it says. Most likely explanation is that either Thomas Owen was "illegitimate" and Owen was his mother's surname but Thomas Tinsley was his father, or that Thomas Tinsley was his stepfather.

[KiteRunner]

Checking on Lancashire BMD, they list the marriage as taking place at Kirkby, St Chad's, and Thomas is listed under both surnames - Owen and Tinsley, so I think it is safe to assume that the IGI entry has been correctly transcribed, at least.

[KiteRunner]

And there is a marriage between Thomas Tinsley and Mary Owen in 1848, at Prescot St Mary's, so that could be connected?

[Kathlyn Maudesley]

Hi Elaine,

I have found Thomas Owen and Ellen together on the 1881 and 1891 census, but I cannot locate them on the 1901

Thomas gives his place of birth as:- Simonswood on the 1881 census, but on the 1891 it is recorded as Rainford. Both places in Lancashire.

I must apologize if it appears that I am a bit of a dipstick, but this side of my family have been nothing but one big headache from my granddad backwards. I am searching totally in the dark and having to "assume" things in the hope that I might hit the target.

Kathlyn

[Elaine ..Spain]

I presume the 1881 census you have found is this one
RG11; Piece: 3689; Folio: 23; Page: 2
Thomas Owen born 1848 Simonswood
Ellen Owen born 1838 Kirby
Martha Alice Heyes born 1867 Simonswood

What concerns me about this one is that I can trace a Thomas Owen, born 1848 Simonswood, back to the 1851 census, with parents Clarisa and Isaac.

The Tinsley/Owen marriage that Kite has found seems more appropriate - but doesn't fit in with anything I can find on the census for a Thomas Owen born Simonswood.

What do you know about Ellen - year of birth / place of birth / parents?

[Elaine ..Spain]

Can we work back from what we know.

There is a 1891 census for Thomas Owen and Ellen
RG12; Piece: 2981; Folio 11; Page 15
Household:
Thomas Owen born c 1851 Rainford - occupation Forester
Ellen Owen born c1856 Kirkby
James Owen age 9
Jane Owen age 2
Mary E Owen age 6

Do you know for sure that this is the right family?

[tessie31082]

i have an ellen owen in 1901 living with brother in law, his children and grandchildren - their names are mawdesly? her birth is down as 1836 in rainhill. they are living in halewood.

[Orangeblossom]

I think they are 2 different families. Bear with me and I'll explain... (may take a while to type out)

[Elaine ..Spain]

I agree Tracy - I have got about 10 census pages open here!

[Orangeblossom]

First family

1851
Isaac Owen 38 Head b.Simonswood
Clarissa Owen 25 Wife b.Upholland
Thomas Owen 3 Son b.Simonswood
Mary Owen 5 Daur b.Simonswood
Jane Owen 1 Daur b.Simonswood
Mary Birchall 14 Neice b.Rainford
John Wilson 22 Serv b.Ollcar?
William Molyneux 16 Serv b.West Derby

1861
Isaac Owen 48 Head b.Simonswood
Clarissa Owen 36 Wife b.Upholland
Thomas Owen 13 Son b.Simonswood
Sarah Owen 9 Daur b.Simonswood
Isaac Owen 7 Son b.Simonswood
Joseph Owen 5 Son b.Simonswood
Ellen Owen 1 Daur b.Simonswood

1871
Samuel Owen 71 Head b.Simonswood
Thomas Owen 23 Son-in-Law b.Simonswood
Ellen Owen 33 Daughter b.Kirby

1881
Thomas Owen 33 Head b.Simonswood
Ellen Owen 43 Wife b.Kirby
Martha Alice Hayes Relative b.Simonswood

1891
Ellen Owen 53 Head b.Kirkby
Martha A Heyes 24 Neice b.Simonswood
Henry Owen 29 Serv b.Simonswood

[Elaine ..Spain]

Yep - agreed!

[Orangeblossom]

Second family

1851
James Owen 28 Head
Jane Owen 28 Wife
Ellen Owen 4 Daur
William Owen 3 Son b.Rainford
Margaret Owen 1 Daur b.Rainford
James Owen 1 Mo Son b.Rainford

1861
Willm Wiswall 32 Head
Jane Wiswall 38 Wife
Ellen Owen 14 Step Daur b.Rainford
Willm Owen 13 Step Son b.Rainford
Margaret Owen 10 Step Daur b.Rainford
Thos Owen 8 Step Son b.Rainford
Mary Wiswall 2 Daur
Samuel Moore 31 Serv
James Moor 19 Serv

Class: RG9; Piece: 2755; Folio: 20B; Page: 5


1871
William Wiswell 40 Head b.Rainford
Jane Wiswell 44 Wife
Mary Wiswell 12 Daur b.Rainford
Henry Wiswell 8 Son b.Rainford
Jane Ann Wiswell 5 Daur b.Rainford
Thomas Owen 18 Serv b.Rainford
Thomas Owen 61 Serv b.Hindle/Windle
William Balshaw 9 Serv b.Rainford

1881
? Still looking...
Not this one: Class: RG11; Piece: 3741; Folio: 23; Page: 2

1891
Thomas Owen 40 Head b.Rainford
Ellen Owen 35 Wife b.Kirkby
James Owen 9 Son b.Kirkby
Mary E Owen 6 Daur b.Kirkby
Jane Owen 2 Daur b.Kirkby


Jane Owen married William Wisenall in JAS 1858 - Prescot 8b 788

[Elaine ..Spain]

Umm - not sure about the second lot Tracy.

I was trying to find a link to the Thomas Tinsley and Mary Owen marriage in 1848 - and came up with this 1851 census
HO107; Piece: 2192; Folio: 893; Page: 40

which shows household of

Thomas Tinsley c 1824 West Derby
Mary Tinsley c 1828 Rainford
Thomas Tinsley c 1846 Rainford
William Tinsley c 1849 Rainford

This would fit in with Thomas being registered as Thomas Owen (born illegitimate) but father on MC being noted as Thomas Tinsley.

[Orangeblossom]

Ahh, that makes more sense lol

[Elaine ..Spain]

OK - let's work forwards on that one!