Unconfigured Ad Widget

Collapse

Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

OC....you probably have these.

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • OC....you probably have these.

    But..just in case you don't

    Robert de Holden was Warder of the House of Converts appointed 1325.

    Symond de Holden (del counte de Rokefburgh) signed the Ragman Roll 1291.


    I wasn't looking for them.....they just popped with some Kirkebys.

  • #2
    Oooh, no Libby, I don't have either of those, thankyou, where did you source them?

    I know who Robert is, but have never heard of Symond.

    However, the Holdens held SYMONDSTONE Manor for centuries, so he must be connected with that manor (which was in Lancashire....where was Rokesburgh???)

    OC

    Comment


    • #3
      Is this to do with it?

      Roxburgh as a Place and Family Name - Prof. D.C. MacGregor

      Mentions Rokesburgh in section II

      Comment


      • #4
        OC.......Robert is on "British History Online" A History of the County of London, Vol 1.

        Symond is here.

        Ragman Rolls

        I'd say it's Roxburgh as Merry has said. Adam de Kirkeby is 'del counte de Berewyk'

        Did you ever find Hollins???? I'm still looking for Hollin(s)bancke. I did find a Hollinshead....though it was a place, but I think it was a person lol.

        Comment


        • #5
          Thanks Merry, I wonder if it is? I cannot imagine for the life of me what the Holdens were doing in Scotland though!

          Just realised, the Robert referred to as Warden of the house of Converts (or Convicts, maybe???) had a brother Nicholas, who inherited Symondstone Manor. Very tempted to think that Symond was a son of Nicholas!

          And, um, Robert and Nicholas' father was Adam... but there has never been any mention of Scottish interests in the Holden family in any generation.

          OC

          Comment


          • #6
            It's definitely "converts", OC. It was for Jewish people who coverted to Christianity.

            Can't say I've found any Kirkebys there either, but they were supporting the English king weren't they?

            Didn't notice my Grants or Gordons signing lol

            Comment


            • #7
              Right, it is starting to make more sense now! Robert de Holden was a retainer or knight of the Earl of Lancaster and therefore owed fealty to Edward 1 (and his successors).

              So it isn't all that surprising that a Holden appears in Scotland swearing allegience to Edward, as per the Ragman Rolls.

              Libby, yes, I did find the Hollins!

              It was a "delightful house" in Habergham Eaves, occupied by Gilbert Holden in 1730. His daughter Mary married Sir John Hamerton and the house passed to the Hamertons.

              I also found Gilbert and his brother John as worthies in the local parish church for at least 40 years, so Gilbert wasn't an identity thief after all!

              I still don't know where he fits in, who his father was etc, but I suspect he is one of the Todd Hall Holdens (so not strictly a Holden of Holden as Todd Hall was a cadet branch).

              I think his marriage licence describing him as Holden of Holden, was just the Bishop having a fit of forelock tugging, remembering that Todd Hall sprang from Holden some 150 years before!

              OC

              Comment


              • #8
                Libby

                How interesting! Goodness, I can't imagine there were all that many Jews wanting conversion, up on the wild Lancashire Moors! That has opened up a new dimension, certainly.

                I presume the position was a sinecure, I mean, he wasn't expected to go in every day and make sure the Converts had cleaned their teeth or whatever..wonder where this place was?

                OC

                Comment


                • #9
                  And, taking a few steps back through this thread, Roxburgh is a "vanished town", which Time Team had a poke around a few years ago. It fell out of use when the national boundary moved and the mouth of the Tweed was no longer in Scotland.
                  Uncle John - Passed away March 2020

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Oh, I wonder why he was described of Rokesburgh, though, when he was probably of Lancashire????

                    Yes, UJ, isn't it strange, not a single stone of the place left. It must have been systematically wiped out of existence.

                    OC

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      OC.....the House of Converts seems to be in London. I wonder if the Warder job was in name only.....a little junket for those with friends in high places.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Yes, I think you are right, Libby!

                        I have spent most of the day chasing up Simonstone records and found something that I previously missed/wasn't there before..a document which definitely links the Holdens of Holden, Chaigley and Simonstone into one family.

                        I KNEW they were linked anyway, but it is nice to have such a definitive document! They appear to have flogged off Simonstone in the late 1400s, but married into it anyway, and there are still Holdens there today.

                        Incidentally, now that TNA have taken over A2A, I find that some documents I previously found on A2A (and looked at, in the flesh) are marked "undated" by TNA.

                        That wasn't the case on A2A, who, even if they couldn't date precisely, could make a stab at the century, and put the bundles in chronological order! Most annoying and a backward step.

                        OC

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          There is a reference to Nicholis del Holden and John de Symondstone in Google Books. They seemed to have license quarrying stone for a church.

                          I came across Symondstone in some old notes I had about the Rawlinson family. It was ages ago when I copied notes but didn't source them.... Live and learn.lol

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            John de Lacy (d 1240) willed one fifth of Symondstone to John del Thelewell.

                            Later (??) William de Haye conveys the manor to Nicholis de Holden. The Holdens were there in 1361.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Ah, the stone quarrying licence thingy, that's between Nicholas of Holden and Simonstone and his brother John, who was one time Abbot of Whalley.

                              Roger, the Cock of Simonstone (TNA call him the cook, pmsl) was, I think, Roger de Holden, a younger son of the Holdens from a previous generation.

                              Cock meant Master or Lord, and the Holdens were "Cock of the Moors" and this is reflected in their Coat of Arms - A Moorcock propre, lol. I think they had a bawdy sense of humour.

                              OC

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X