The Winner of WDYTYA 28th August is...

[Georgette]

Val and George !!!!
Well done to you both and I hope those walls come tumbling down

[Val and George]

Who were the parents of William Semaine?

Thankyou for this wonderful opportunity to share our 'brick wall' - and hopefully find some answers. We are very lucky to have so many willing people on our side. - Much appreciated

Our problem for many years has been with George's ancestor -William Semaine/Samain born c.1800 in Gosport. Why Gosport, and who were his parents?

From 1819 onwards the Semaine family were well entrenched in Shoreditch and the nearby areas - right up until fairly recently, so why Gosport?

I will fill you in with what we know and much of this has been substantiated by certificates, census, newspaper reports and even the Old Bailey in April 1834 when William Semaine and his wife were called as witnesses in a trial.

I will use the spellings for the surname as I found them

On 17/1/1819 William Samain - of this parish -a minor, married Catherine Brown - of this parish - a spinster, at St Lukes Shoreditch. William signed his name, Catherine didn't. The witnesses were George Palmer and James Samain X

Census:
1841 William Semaine 42 Turner born abt 1799
1851 William Semaine 52 Turner born Gosfurt
1861 William Lemaire 61 Turner born Shoreditch
1871 William Lemoine 72 Turner born Gosport Hants
1881 William Semaine 81 Turner born Hants

William Semaine died in 1889 at the Holborn Workhouse aged 88

I think that covers the important parts - for the time being. Val

[Grampa Jim]

In the records for the Independent Chapel, Gosport High Street I found this:

William, son of John Eman and Anne his wife of the Parish of Alverstoke in the County of Hants (Born on the 19th November 1800) was Baptized on the 28th day of December 1800.

[Val and George]

Thankyou for that. I have checked the IGI and found both the marriage for John Eman and Ann Hillier 24/2/1800, and also the birth of another son, John Eman in 1804, and as the spellings of the surname are the same for all three of those records I would imagine they would be another family entirely. What do you think?

[Grampa Jim]

The word "Semaine" is French and I believe pronounced seman. I wouldn't discount the Eman Family entirely unless we can find a Semaine Family concurrent with them. Have you checked the Censuses for Eman?

Oh, by the way, the IGI can be notoriously inaccurate. Anything you find there needs to be checked at Source.

[Val and George]

No, but I will do that tomorrow, thanks for the idea

[deletejb]

Have you see there is a marriage in Winchester Hampshire on 5th July 1803 for a Maryanne Schmit and a William Seaman. Probably not his parents if he was born 1799.

Jan

[BridgetM]

Punchs Mum is offering to do look ups in Gosport? Have you asked her (I couldn't face checking the 70+ replies on her thread) ;)

[Val and George]

Thankyou for all your ideas, and I have contacted Punchs Mum to ask her help as well.

Something new has come to light just recently in the Chelsea Hospital Records at Kew

John Semaine born Deal Kent served 37th Foot Regiment 7th royal Battallion - discharged age 41 covering dates 1808-1837

I went on to the Kent Lookups and a researcher has just come back with this birth entry for me


The only SEMAIN in Deal to 1837 is
John s/o James & Eliz. Soldier's child bapt 5 Jun 1796

This has opened up a whole new line of thought. I hadn't considered that William may have been the son of a soldier. Could this John have been his brother and maybe their father had been transferred to Gosport by the time William was born? What next I wonder!! Help - Val

[Val and George]

Today I looked through the new births that are now on ancestry for William c1800, unfortunately with no luck, but then I didn't find the birth for the above John Semain, so obviously not all churches are included. I did come across a James Soman marrying an Elizabeth Yeomans 12/2/1784 in Aylesford Kent. I wonder if these are the parents of John - with yet another spelling variation?

[Grampa Jim]

If John and Elizabeth were George's ancestors it would preclude the Emans (William 1800, John 1804) we found at Gosport as their parents were John and Anne.

As for Soman,it would seem unusual if their children were not born until 12/16 years after the marriage.

Have you found any John & Anne/John & Elizabeths in the Censuses?

[Val and George]

Hello GJ - I must admit that the time between marriage and children did rather put me off the Soman family.

I haven't found any John & Ann or John/Elizabeth's in the census so far, but I will keep looking. Thanks - Val

[Val and George]

This is head banging time, I seem to be going round and round in circles at present!
I'd like to go with the military thread for the time being, so bear with me

Chelsea Hospital Records at Kew show:
WO97/1132/228 JAMES SAMAIN born Bethnal Green, London and Middlesex. Served in 7th Royal Veteran Battalion; 2nd Foot Guards
Discharged aged 47 covering dates 1799-1814

A discovery last week by someone researching at Kew found
ADM6/225/33 Re; James Samain would be Chelsea inpensioner. Very little information in the ledger. he was minuted on the 4th April 1782, aged 40 years with 11 years service discharged in 1781. affliction early blind. (could that have been nearly blind?)

Were these two different James Samain, or the same one?
The John Semaine born Deal Kent also served as a soldier
WO97/542/8 JOHN SEMAINE born Deal Kent. Served in 37th Foot regiment; 7th Royal Veteran Battalion discharged aged 41 covering dates 1808-1837.
He must have joined up as a boy soldier - could that have been possible do you think?

Our William Samain/Semaine married Catherine Brown and they had eight children. The first two boys were named John 1826 and James 1828. Do you think I am grasping at straws? Val

[KiteRunner]

Val, it would probably help if you can get copies of those records from Kew so you know the actual dates of discharge and then you can estimate dates of birth. But it looks as though the one discharged 1799-1814 age 47 would be a different one from the one discharged 1781 age 40; and possibly the one discharged age 41 sometime between 1808 and 1837 is the same as the first one with the age wrong on one of them? Could well be related to William but more info is needed to work out how! I know that the Kew records might turn out to be no help or not related after all, but it might well be worth getting copies of them anyway just to see.

[Val and George]

Thankyou for that, are the Kew records only available to people going in personally, or is it possible to access them via other means as we are in Brisbane Aus? The lady that looked up these for me found it very daunting, so I wouldn't ask her again, but we would be happy to pay a researcher. I know you have to have a readers ticket.
We had been thinking that James, James and John were grandfather, son and grandson, but that was only speculation on our part.
Any advice would be gratefully accepted, thankyou, Val

[KiteRunner]

Val, when you search on TNA website and look at the results, sometimes there is a "Request this" button which you can click on to order a copy of the document and there may be different options e.g. digital download of a limited number of pages or printed copy of the whole document in the post.

There are lots of paid researchers available - see this link:
The National Archives | Independent Researchers
If the link doesn't work then this should be the way to get to it - Home > Research, education & online exhibitions > Paying for research > Independent researchers

[Val and George]

Thankyou Kiterunner for that information. I went onto the website and found my way around it much more easily with your explanation, and have sent off for an estimate for the relevant documents. I am very grateful

[Val and George]

Thankyou everyone for the help this week, we haven't broken down all the barriers yet, but certainly have some new information to work with. Much appreciated - Val and George