Journeyman is a skilled man who is not a master because he works for someone else. A Master is self employed.
Because he is skilled he is paid by the day, rather than working for a wage.
My late FIL was a Master carpenter but after the war his business folded and he became a Journeyman again. He DID travel here there and everywhere, being paid by the job rather than by the day.
OH's grandfather was a Journeyman Sugar Boiler, (sweet maker). He had been placed in an industrial boarding school after his mother died and father re-maried and was placed as an apprentice to a sweet maker as soon as he was old enough.
He actually invented the recipe for Jesmona Black Bullet sweets in later life. Didn't make a fortune though as he 'sold' his rights and the recipe for a life time pension from the firm he worked for.
Daphne
Looking for Northey, Goodfellow, Jobes, Heal, Lilburn, Curry, Gay, Carpenter, Johns, Harris, Vigus from Cornwall, Somerset, Durham, Northumberland, Cumberland, USA, Australia.
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Because he is skilled he is paid by the day, rather than working for a wage.
Perhaps it's just late, but I'm not sure I see the distinction - isn't that the same as working for a daily wage?
A defining characteristic might be that a journeyman is paid for his time, unlike someone who does piece work.
Whenever I've seen on a census return that someone "Employs 3 men and 2 boys", I've imagined that the men were likely journeymen (if they were skilled workers) and the boys were probably apprentices - does that make sense?
I've also believed that a journeyman who was happy with his master (and vice versa) might stay in one shop for years, and not necessarily be an itinerant workman (although these undoubtedly existed, in some places more than others). Does anyone disagree?
Just trying to make sure I have the correct idea.
Thanks -
Tim
"If we're lucky, one day our names and dates will appear in our descendants' family trees."
This term is still in use today in the hackney Carriage (taxi) trade.
Many taxi owners, especially in cities, have one or maybe two other drivers working for them. These in cities like London for example MUST have undergone 'The Knowledge', but perhaps cannot afford a taxi of their own. So they are employed as the owners 'journeymen' thus allowing him to keep his taxi in 'earning mode' for up to 23 hours per day!
I meant, paid by the day (or the job) rather than being paid to sit around doing nothing or making chair legs out of gash wood, lol, as a full time employee might have to do.
My FIL spent nearly seven years making and fitting mahogany bookshelves in some posh country house in Bucks. He (as a journeyman) and his employer came to an agreement that FIL would be paid a subsistence "wage" until the job was finished, at which point FIL would collect the dosh and pay back his employer for the advanced wages.
What a performance. But it reflected his standing in the trade, i.e. not an ordinary waged employee.
I meant, paid by the day (or the job) rather than being paid to sit around doing nothing or making chair legs out of gash wood, lol, as a full time employee might have to do.
My FIL spent nearly seven years making and fitting mahogany bookshelves in some posh country house in Bucks. He (as a journeyman) and his employer came to an agreement that FIL would be paid a subsistence "wage" until the job was finished, at which point FIL would collect the dosh and pay back his employer for the advanced wages.
What a performance. But it reflected his standing in the trade, i.e. not an ordinary waged employee.
OC
Thank you OC, for this - I think I may be getting the idea, although I'm not sure how it would work for a shoemaker, for example. My gg-gf worked as a journeyman cordwainer after he retired from the Customs service in London and moved back to Devon, settling in Newton Abbot. His father had been a master shoemaker in Bridgetown, Totnes and an older brother took over the business there. Some time later, my gg-gf opened his own shoe and bootshop in Newton, as well as a grocery next door.
I assume that a journeyman would have his own tools but that the master would supply the workspace and materials - does that sound right? And presumably the master would also deal with customers, although I don't know if, for example, a journeyman would take the customer's measurements and use his own shoe lasts or whether these would also be provided by the master. Would a journeyman be in the shop and be paid when business was slow if the master wanted to keep him from working elsewhere?
I expect things may have worked differently at different times and in different places (e.g., I'm sure that London was unlike anywhere else), but if anyone has any insight as to how journeymen shoemakers, tailors, butchers, etc... worked, I'd be interested to learn more.
Thanks -
Tim
"If we're lucky, one day our names and dates will appear in our descendants' family trees."
OH was born in 1971 and his fathers occupation on his birth cert is Slater Journeyman.
At that time he worked for a firm and was paid a wage. Obviously he had to travel to roofs as he couldn't keep working on the same one :D but he was never away from home for any longer than his days work.
He then became a master at his trade and worked for himself.
He started his apprenticeship when he was 15yrs and although he should have retired a few years ago his 'fans' sorry customers won't let him.
At 71 he can still be seen up many a roof in and around Stirling/shire
Seems to me that the term "Journeyman" covers a Tradesman's time between finishing his Apprenticeship and starting Business on his own account which would be when he became a Master.
Yes, I think the reality has changed even if the meaning hasn't!
A journeyman might or might not have his own tools, although the further back you go in time, the more I would expect him to have had his own tools.
These days there seems to be another stage between apprentice and journeyman - that of "improver". I don't know when that started, and even if it is a recognised guild qualification.
The government and IR hate journeymen in the building trade because it is akin to being self-employed and they hate that as it offers room for fraud (in their opinion, lol).
The young chap who lives next door to me is a Master Cabinet Maker...and a journeyman carpenter! This reflects the fact that he makes (beautiful) furniture, which he cannot sell, so goes to work on building sites to do first and second fixings to earn some money. He tells me he is entitled to call himself both things, as and when he wishes.
OC I was an "Improver Carpenter" back in the mid 1950s. Basically it meant that I worked with a Carpenter and tried to learn the Craft without the formality of signing Apprenticeship papers.
OC I was an "Improver Carpenter" back in the mid 1950s. Basically it meant that I worked with a Carpenter and tried to learn the Craft without the formality of signing Apprenticeship papers.
This site is the best! I learn something new everyday Thanks Grampa Jim..
Fascinating information, thanks everyone.
One of my GGrandfathers was a Cooper Journeyman and I've always wondered what this meant.
As Northen Light says, we learn something new everyday here!
Lynne
Searching for Ford, Duffy, (Manchester and Ireland) Cree (Manchester, Derbyshire, Nottinghamshire), Owen (Manchester), Humphreys (Manchester and Ireland), Egerton (Manchester and Cheshire), Cresswell (Manchester).
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