Is this Latin?

[Harrys mum]

You can all blame OC for this....lol

Everytime she starts a "Holden" thread it spurs me on with this lot.

I've found a reference to some of the Kirkby family (I know they were known as 'de Kirkeby' and 'de Kirkbye'). I have no idea what language it is...

"Et de vij xvj xj ut de pcio siue valore dituss ornamen ptinen siue spectan djuss capett infra com Lancasti"


Any ideas??

[Olde Crone Holden]

Yes, it's Lancastrian Latin, lol!

(Isn't there an English translation? There usually is. It's money for something, or a valuation)

OC

[Roger in Sussex]

Yes, it is Latin, but highly abbreviated. Some of the words will have extra squiggles showing how to expand it so it is more understandable.

Guessing, it is something like

And concerning 7 14 11 (Probably £7 14s 11d,) as of the price or value belonging or pertaining to the said (ornamentation?) of the said headland in the county of Lancaster.

Correction: Read £7 16s. 11d., see Christine's post below.

[Phoenix]

Is this typed, or written? It looks as if a few abbreviations are missing. It is Latin, but I can't manage much more than "in the county of Lancashire"

[Harrys mum]

It is typed and I've copied it exactly. Some parts looked like Latin...others looked a Greek. But then I don't talk proper English, so uselss at any other language.

I'm just finding any references to this family, then I'll see if I can put them together.

If only they'd stp naming the kids Ralph or Alan. Alan????? I thought that was modern.

OC....is there a difference between Lancastrian Latin and other Latin???

I'll have a look for an English copy.

[Christine in Herts]

I think - very unusually - I'd disagree with Roger about the number of shillings. I think it's 16? - "xvj"

As to the rest - I blanked a bit - but comparing Roger's translation with the words I recognised, it certainly looks accurate to me. And I think I recall that Roger has significantly more qualification than I in this area!

Christine

[Olde Crone Holden]

Libby

No, I was joshing! Most written latin of that era was "dog latin" - the clerks were no better at latin than they were at English.

What kind of date is it and what is the document called? It could be an inventory, or part of a will.

This very abbreviated stuff is a pain and is called Secretary Hand.

OC

[KiteRunner]

Well, I'm sure there is Scottish Latin, so why not Lancastrian Latin?

[Roger in Sussex]

Thank you Christine *takes a bow*:D I'm not really very qualified, there must be someone on here who can do better.

You are quite right about the 16s., my mistake.

Not sure about "dituss ornamen" or "djuss capett". Who would go around ornamenting a headland???

[Harrys mum]

OC....the book is "Remains, Historical and Literary, Connected with the Palatine Counties of Lancaster and Chester"

It seems to cover a few centuries. There's reference to Henry Kirkbye son of Sir Roger de Kirkbye descended from Alexander de Kirkbye, the supposed founder of the Church of Kirkbye Irelith. Then one of them died without wife or issue and there seemed to be a kerfuffle regarding the Abbey of Furness. That was in the 1200s.

Then there is a court case in 1523 with Richard Kirkbye being charged with illegally detaining lands in Broughton and Turven (that's a new place??).
Richard won that case.

This lot loved going to court...........

[Harrys mum]

Roger, there is a lot of Chantrys being mentioned so maybe it's a lot of church type stuff. I suppose they had "ornaments"??

[Roger in Sussex]

Thinking about it capett might be a mis-transcription of capell with a stroke through the ascenders of the ll in which case it might refer to the decoration of a chapel, which would make more sense.

[Roger in Sussex]

Cross posted with you Libby, capella might well mean a chantry as you suggest.

[Harrys mum]

The word 'capett' is used for some and 'capella' for others in the same chapter.

There's the 'capett de Kirkbye' 'capett de Shawe' capett de Haughton'

There's also 'capella de Crossbye' 'capella de Haywood'

Maybe it relates to size or could one be headed by males and one by females???

Don't laugh.....please.

[Roger in Sussex]

That would tend to confirm what I thought. capell with a stroke through the ll would be an abbreviation, while capella could be the same word unabbreviated. Probably the original scribe was not consistent.

You could read "decoration" for "ornamen". That could include such things as wall paintings or holy statues or woodwork or whatever.

Sounds medieval, so £7 16s. 11d. would have been a large sum of money.

[Patience of Pendle]

Then there is a court case in 1523 with Richard Kirkbye being charged with illegally detaining lands in Broughton and Turven (that's a new place??).
Richard won that case.

Could that be Torver? It is near to the other places that you mentioned.

[Harrys mum]

Could be Janet.

The names have changed a bit with different spelling over the years. I'll check it out.

I really need to win a lottery so I can come over and wander around a bit.

[Phoenix]

Then there is a court case in 1523 with Richard Kirkbye being charged with illegally detaining lands in Broughton and Turven (that's a new place??).
Richard won that case.

This lot loved going to court...........

Libby, you need to win a lottery and come here and camp outside Kew for a month! If there are court cases, then the odds are there will be lots in the courts of Exchequer, Chancery, Star Chamber & Requests. They are in English and wonderful fun. The documents are all sorts of wierd shapes and often run to several pages, so copies would work out really expensive - and you can't guarantee that they aren't so rubbed & dirty as to be illegible - but I've got the actual insults ancestors hurled at each other and tiny doemstic details, like a mother riding to a son's wedding and the coin she bestowed on his future wife.

[Olde Crone Holden]

Libby

How odd, I am digging in exactly the same book!!!

I know from previous experience that many of these documents now reside with Lancs RO (well, the Holden stuff does, so no doubt the Kirkby stuff too) and they have obligingly translated these very early documents - they are after all of very important historic interest, not just to us.

See if you can find the same document by searching the LancsRO site - not for the book, but for the document I mean.

(The Holdens loved a good court battle too, for which I fervently give thanks!)

OC

[Harrys mum]

Phoenix..............I'm an Aussie.....I go the distance between Lancs and Kew for a decent meal LOL......I'd be all over the place.

OC........that is odd.....as I said, you started this lol.

I love the info Lancs RO has and their OPC. I did hear though, Cumbria is refusing to allow Lancs to access any more of their records.
Wouldn't worry me if Cumbria did their own, but they don't have much online.

I just found a story about a 'cross house' owned by one Kirkby when he had the church at Kirkby Irelith. Not sure if it's the same 'cross house', but there was one handed dwon from OH's 5xgreat grandfather in his will of 1814. The reference I saw on a British History site was owned by Kirkbys in the 1600s.

I think I will just buy as many Kirkby wills from Lancs RO as I can and try to sort it that way. They are only 5 pounds each and great value for money.