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Really need some help with this Ladies whereabouts

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  • Really need some help with this Ladies whereabouts

    Really need help with this one she is driving me bonkers.
    Susan/Esther Joel
    Cannot find her before 1861 although she is on other census from 1871 to 1891 as born in abt 1842 Whitechapel Middlesex
    She is married in 1857 in a Church calling herself Susan Joel ,age full, daughter of Coleman Joel a General Dealer, to Abraham Rose (Cap Maker)
    She is then married again in 1860 in a Synagogue calling herself Esther Joel, age 21 ,daughter of Coleman Joel a Dealer, to Abraham Isaac Guttantag (Cap Maker)
    This is the same man .
    1861
    Have her calling herself Esther with Husband Abraham Rose a Cap Maker ,and one Son Hyam D living in Court Street Whitechapel
    1871
    Have her calling herself Susan with Husband Abraham Rose and Children
    Hyam now 11
    Isaac 6
    Charles 4
    John 2
    Miriam 10 months livng in 238 Mile End Road Whitechapel
    1881
    Have her calling herself Susan with Husband Abraham Rose and Children
    Alfred born abt 1861
    Arthur born abt 1865
    Chas born abt 1866
    John born abt 1869
    Miriam born abt 1870
    Lydia born abt 1872
    Cordelia born abt 1874
    living in 57 Oakley Street Islington
    1891
    Have her calling herself Susan with Husband Abraham Rose and Children
    Charles 25
    John 23
    Miriam 21
    Lydia 18
    Cordelia 17
    Found Abraham Rose Death in 1914 aged 83 formerly Silk Hat Maker he died in a Almshouse in Mile End daughter Minnie Macks informant I believe her to be Miriam ??
    But cannot find Susan/Esthers Birth or Death
    Did get a Death Cert for a Susan Rose 1900 but she was the Widow of a Walter Rose Shoemaker and another of a Susan Rose 1907 but she was the Widow of a John Rose Furniture Dealer
    I know this is very long winded but any suggestions would be gratefully received !! as long as they arent rude
    Thanks
    Last edited by Guest; 22-08-08, 12:13.

  • #2
    Hmmm, I think this one has driven me bonkers before, Val!

    If she knocked a few years off her age for the censuses and told the truth about her age when she got married (the first time!), she would have been born before the start of civil registration, so you would have to look at synagogue records for her birth, wouldn't you? Have you already tried that?
    KiteRunner

    Every five years or so I look back on my life and I have a good... laugh"
    (Indigo Girls, "Watershed")

    Comment


    • #3
      I assume you've tried Jewish Gen?
      ~ with love from Little Nell~
      Chowns, Dunt, Emms, Mealing, Purvey & Smoothy

      Comment


      • #4
        I know Joel is as common in the Jewish community as Jones is in the gentiles but

        1841 only has one Coleman Joel of the right age to be your lady's dad, living with wife called Esther (again v. common in Jewish families). He's a broker (seems to be a posh word for a dealer) in Shepherd Street, Spitalfields
        HO107; Piece 710; Book: 11; 21; Folio: ; Page: 5

        and the same family (I think) appear in 1851
        HO107; Piece: 1544; Folio: 7; Page: 6 with daughter called Miriam (again common) and a 7 year old daur called Flora.

        Pure speculation, but this does seem to be the only possible Coleman, and this girl wd be rightish age to be your girl, perhaps called Flora by accident, either in hearing or in writing, recording. Or she may have been called this to differentiate her from her mother Esther.
        ~ with love from Little Nell~
        Chowns, Dunt, Emms, Mealing, Purvey & Smoothy

        Comment


        • #5
          ******!
          Just found Flora with COleman and Esther in 1861!
          ~ with love from Little Nell~
          Chowns, Dunt, Emms, Mealing, Purvey & Smoothy

          Comment


          • #6
            Maybe Coleman was a stepfather or an invented father and she was born and registered with another name, though I don't know how you will find out.
            ~ with love from Little Nell~
            Chowns, Dunt, Emms, Mealing, Purvey & Smoothy

            Comment


            • #7
              Hi and thanks for looking , I am fed up with this lot ,cannot seem to get any further, would love to find her Death .
              Yes I found that family too Nell
              I have not looked on Jewish Gen but will do today and thanks again.

              Comment


              • #8
                There is a birth reg for a Blooma Flora Joel Sep 1843 Whitechapel.

                (sorry, I see she has been ruled out now!)
                KiteRunner

                Every five years or so I look back on my life and I have a good... laugh"
                (Indigo Girls, "Watershed")

                Comment


                • #9
                  Good luck.

                  My husband's Jewish branch have a Mary Joel who seems to call herself Elizabeth at some point just to add confusion. They were all fishmongers.
                  ~ with love from Little Nell~
                  Chowns, Dunt, Emms, Mealing, Purvey & Smoothy

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Are the marriage witnesses any help? Also do you have her address at the first marriage?

                    Jackie
                    Jackie

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Nothing about the censuses, but have you seen this?
                      Jewish Chronicle Births, Marriages and Deaths 1880-1889

                      It has a death for Esther "relict of Coleman Joel".

                      Oh, sorry. She's too old. Born 1804. Must be the 'other' one.
                      Last edited by Orangeblossom; 22-08-08, 15:17.
                      Tracy

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        the other thing is this lot changed their first names too and some married under Guttantag others married under Rose.
                        Jackie the witnesses to the first marriage were Sisters a Lydia and a Julia Lazarus , who were also their neighbours in the 1861 census , she Lydia is living with them in 1871 & 1881 described as Mother ????
                        and in 1891 she is described as Mother-in-law??
                        I never could figure out the relationship as Abraham was born in Germany and she Lydia was born in Whitechapel????
                        I did wonder if she is Susans unmarried Mother and maybe Coleman Joel was the father
                        and let her use his name??
                        The second marriage was a Louis Isaacs and a Alexander Levy , I dont know who they were

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          wow Tracy that is interesting shall have a look
                          through
                          that maybe some of my others will be there

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I'm thinking that the Coleman on the censuses is the Coleman on her marriage cert. He's the only one listed on FreeBMD too (old enough to be her father).

                            Perhaps you're right about her being illegitimate.

                            I did have a look for baby Lazarus, but didn't find a Susan or Esther (or Female).
                            Tracy

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I was in contact some time ago with somebody who has researched that Coleman Joel family and he had not heard of this girl?? but then he would not have told his wife he was having an affair would he ???
                              Thanks for your help
                              I dont intend to let it beat me, I leave it alone for a while then it niggles me so I try again.

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                I was trying to work out who Lydia Rose (Lazarus) was on the 1891. I managed to find her on 41 and 51 but it hasn't helped.

                                It's odd that we can't find Susan's death though.

                                Jackie
                                Jackie

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Originally posted by Night Owl View Post
                                  It's odd that we can't find Susan's death though.
                                  Depends what she was known as to the informant, perhaps.
                                  Uncle John - Passed away March 2020

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                                  • #18
                                    thanks for looking, shall have to go into it further .

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Possibility??

                                      Susan E Rose age 79 Mar 1921 Wandsworth 1d 478
                                      Jayne




                                      My avatar is great great granny Annie Pugh, possibly christened 24 Feb 1858.

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Found these

                                        Lydia Lazarus died mar 1898 Bethnal Green 1c 161 age 84

                                        Henry Lazarus married dec 1862 Bethnal green 1c 655 to Lydia Innocent

                                        Henry Lazarus died jun 1873 Whitechapel 1c 207 age 65

                                        Lydia is down as widow on 1881 census.

                                        Not got sub to ancestry so cannot check any further.
                                        Jayne




                                        My avatar is great great granny Annie Pugh, possibly christened 24 Feb 1858.

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