1841 census lookup please

[Jan B]

Hi,
Could someone please look on the 1841 census for the following couple.
Richard and Elizabeth AMES.

They got married in Beaminster, Dorset on 23rd July 1833. That's all I know about them.

I don't think they are mine, so I am trying to rule them out. If they are living in Dorset in 1841, then it will prove they are not the ones I'm looking for.
I've been searching for the marriage of Richard and Eliza (Elizabeth) ELMS for years, and they had various variations of the surname Elms.
The Somerset and Dorset FHS did a marriage search for me, and the above marriage was the only one they came up with. I know my Richard and Eliza Elms are on the 1841 census living at Hallatrow in Somerset, but they must have got married further afield somewhere. Hence me asking about the above couple, to maybe eliminate them from my searches.
Hope this makes sense to you all!

Jan

[Elaine ..Spain]

There is a Richard and Elizabeth Ames living in Beamisnter, Dorset - both born c1811, Dorset
HO107; Piece 280; Book: 1; Civil Parish: Beaminster; County: Dorset; Enumeration District: 3; Folio: 49; Page: 18; Line: 24

[Jan B]

Thanks very much for looking for me Elaine.
I guess that rules that couple out then! Ah well, back to the drawing board and looking elsewhere for my couple.

Jan

[Merry Monty Montgomery]

Have you considered Eliza's maiden name might be Moore? Just that George Moore, lodger, living with them in 1851 just might be Eliza's brother as their niece is also a Moore and George was born in the same village as Eliza.

[Merry Monty Montgomery]

And who is "relative" Elizabeth Chard Barry?

I see Barry was apparently the middle name of Emma Barry Elms who was aged 4 and with your Richard and Eliza in 1841 (their daughter?) and then we have Elizabeth C Barry aged 3 with them in 1861, so is Barry another potential surname for Eliza?

[Merry Monty Montgomery]

My money is on Moore at the moment, as there are no Barrys from Chilcompton on the 1851 or 1861 census but there are three or four Moores (a more common name, I grant!)

[Merry Monty Montgomery]

Elizabeth Chard Barry has become Elizabeth Chard by 1871 and by then she is "niece"!

[Merry Monty Montgomery]

Sorry, I expect you know all this already, but I'm bored! lol

[Merry Monty Montgomery]

I expect these are the parents of Elizabeth Chard Barry, getting married the same Q as she was registered for birth.

Marriages Sept 1857
Barry Emma Moore Clutton 5c 974a
Chard William Clutton 5c 974a

Emma's entry is mis-transcribed for name and for page number on FreeBMD.

My Q is........is that Emma Barry Elms, who was with Richard and Eliza Elms in 1841 (aged 4) and who I thought was likely to be their daughter, but seemed to turn up again in 1851 called Emma Moore and "niece" (aged 14), now called Emma Moore Barry at marriage? If she is, why is that, and also if her daughter (if that is correct) Elizabeth Chard Barry was Richard and Eliza's niece, then how does that work?? Maybe she was a great-niece??

[Merry Monty Montgomery]

I wonder if this is the death of Emma Moore Chard nee Barry (or whoever she is!)

Deaths Jun 1866
Chard Emma M 28 Clutton 5c 455

If so, she should be on the 1861 census.

[Merry Monty Montgomery]

Hmmmmm......most of the Emma Chards (b abt 1835-1840) in 1861 are single. One was born Chilcompton, but she's still alive and still single on all the censuses up to 1901.

[Jan B]

Hi Merry,
Many thanks for all your hard work - its really appreciated. I've been trying to reply to you for ages, but have my daughter and grandson here for the afternoon - they have just popped out for a walk, leaving me to finish the housework??? off! LOL

Since I posted this message, I'm delighted to find out through another list, that Richard Elms did indeed marry Eliza Moore in Bristol.
You have been quite the detective today - thanks!
Richard and Eliza didnt have any children of their own, but Emma Moore is Eliza's neice.
Finding out Eliza's maiden name that it is Moore, confirmed my suspicions and yours too,
that George Moore is indeed brother to Eliza. Someone else told me before that
Emma Moore is the illigitimate dgt of George Moore, and his parents also lived next door to Richard and Eliza in the 1851 census. George Moore never married and no one knows who Emma's mother was.
I have a possible birth entry of her from the Bath indexes, as follows;-

Bath Birth indexes for the years: 1837
Surname Forename(s) Sub-District Registers At Mother's Maiden Name
Reference
MOORE (girl) Daughter Of George Midsomer Norton Bath LANGLEY MSN/1/064

No name is given for the dgt, but it looks a likely bet and I will follow it up by looking at the original indexes sometime. I'm puzzled by the mothers surname of LANGLEY, as like you, I was convinced it would be BARRY.

I'll post this now, and see if you have added anything else that I can answer.

Jan

[Jan B]

Hi again Merry,
I'm really pleased with your detective work - thanks. I'll have to get back to you later, as I really must get the housework done before my dgt and grandson come back!

I'll write later on.

Jan

[Merry Monty Montgomery]

lol!! You can pop round and do my stairs later......the dust is this thick .......

*holds index finger and thumb really far apart*

[Merry Monty Montgomery]

Bath Birth indexes for the years: 1837
Surname Forename(s) Sub-District Registers At Mother's Maiden Name
Reference
MOORE (girl) Daughter Of George Midsomer Norton Bath LANGLEY MSN/1/064

Maybe that one is someone else? Your Emma could have easily been born before July 1837 or might not have been registered at all. The census has her born in Bath which wouldn't normally be Midsummer Norton subdistrict (unless they were generalising about her place of birth on the census).

Also, in theory the above couple should be married as there is no reg in the name of Langley (obviously they may have pretended to be married!)

[Merry Monty Montgomery]

I had completely forgotten about BathBMD. That 1866 death is right (as I expect you knew!). I wonder if Emma died as a complication of childbirth? Both these entries are listed for 1866, though 23 entries apart.


CHARD Anna Maria 0 Clutton Bath CLU/9/240
CHARD Emma Moore 28 Clutton Bath CLU/9/263

[Merry Monty Montgomery]

Bother - I checked the birth index for Anna Maria (in 1866), but mmn isn't recorded.

[Merry Monty Montgomery]

The Somerset and Dorset FHS did a marriage search for me, and the above marriage was the only one they came up with. I know my Richard and Eliza Elms are on the 1841 census living at Hallatrow in Somerset, but they must have got married further afield somewhere.

Did you check the years and parishes actually covered by the S&DFHS?

[Jan B]

Hi Merry,
Well, I've finished my housework now! I can come and do yours next. LOL
Had to tidy the house, as my son decided to phone me at 10.30pm last night, telling me he was coming home today for the night, and his girlfriend too! (she is very houseproud!) Asked me to make the spare bed up for her! Arrghh - you should have seen my spare room! It's all nice and clean now ready for them coming whenever they land!
A very big thank you for all your work today - I'm really pleased with it all.

Think I've mentioned that another list (Bristol and Somerset list) found Richard and Eliza's marriage for me today - they married in Bristol in 1834. Someone looked on the
Bristol and Somerset FHS cd's and found them for me.
The marriage confirmed that Eliza was indeed a Moore before marriage, therefore being brother to George and his dgt Emma Barry Moore.
I know some of what you told me about Emma Barry Moore, but you told me new things about her, which is exciting. It is confusing isn't it, that Emma had all the different surname changes in different census. Richard and Eliza fostered her, therefore sometimes she was called Elms, sometimes Moore after her father. As for her being called BARRY - I have no idea and am wondering if that was her mothers name, but can't find any evidence yet.
The possible birth of Emma I mentioned earlier, I'm not sure about, and I'll investigate further, as it needs parish registers looking at.
To save you going back, this is the birth I'm wondering about;-

Bath Birth indexes for the years: 1837
Surname Forename(s) Sub-District Registers At Mother's Maiden Name
Reference
MOORE (girl) Daughter Of George Midsomer Norton Bath LANGLEY MSN/1/064

As you say, the census says Emma was born in Bath. I've just seen that Midsomer Norton is 10 miles from Bath, so I agree with you that maybe its not the right birth.
I'll look into it further.
I do feel that as the surname Barry is her middle name, that her mother surely must be called Barry.

I knew that Emma had an illegitimate dgt in 1853 in May 1853, she was called
Mary Anne BARRY (that surname again!) Mary Anne Barry died aged 9 months in January 1854.
Then Emma had another illegitimate dgt in 1857, called Elizabeth.
Elizabeth must be the one you found below:-

>>I see Barry was apparently the middle name of Emma Barry Elms who was aged 4 and with your >>Richard and Eliza in 1841 (their daughter?) and then we have Elizabeth C Barry aged 3 with >>them in 1861, so is Barry another potential surname for Eliza?
>>Elizabeth Chard Barry has become Elizabeth Chard by 1871 and by then she is "niece"!

Then Emma married William CHARD in 1857.

I knew that Emma Chard (Moore, Barry etc!) had died in 1866, but I didn't know she had another dgt, who also died.

>>I wonder if Emma died as a complication of childbirth? Both these entries are listed for 1866, >>though 23 entries apart.

>>CHARD Anna Maria 0 Clutton Bath CLU/9/240
>>CHARD Emma Moore 28 Clutton Bath CLU/9/263

So thanks very much for finding out about the above death entries. It does look like Emma died of childbirth doesnt it.

You mentioned that you looked on the 1861 and 1871 census for them and found;-

>>and then we have Elizabeth C Barry aged 3 with them in 1861, so is Barry another potential >>surname for Eliza?

>>Elizabeth Chard Barry has become Elizabeth Chard by 1871 and by then she is "niece"!

I haven't got those census, and wonder if you could please send me copies of them?

Now all I have to do is to find out why Emma was called Barry and find her baptism entry!

Many thanks for all your help - you've been brilliant!

Best wishes,
Jan

[Merry Monty Montgomery]

Hi Jan,

I think the biggest clue to Emma's mother being called Barry is that we know her parents were not married and Emma uses the name Barry when she marries. Many people used "cover" surnames in everyday life, but reverted to birth name when they got married. I think this is what she did.

Remember we don't know the child who died in 1866 was Emma's daughter.

Is it just the 1861 and 1871 census you need with Elizabeth Chard/Barry?

I'll do them tomorrow - maybe you could pm me your email address?