conways in london

[kylejustin]

hi everyone. trying to sort out my morton ancestry. you guys have been tremendousley helpful with john and his family.

im looking for a really slippery family- more slippery than john's ever was.

i have a florence conway married to thomas henry morton in 30 oct 1892,wandsworth, battersea. i have the info of the family down to me. she was born in 1870.

florence is the daughter of james conway, butler, deceased, according to the certificate. on the 1881 census she is in shellwood terrace, wandsworth. with her mother and brother. she's in 1871 in wandsworth as well.

her father is james. he's not on any census with his family. he married a sarah. she was widowed in 1881, again to the census. she was born in 1839, pimlico, near westminster. i can't find a marriage for either of them.

i dont have sarah's maiden name. and i cant find florence's birth record on freebmd. her brother was ernest james conway, born in 1868, lewisham, kent.
florence was born in battersea.

i have florence, sarah, and ernest in 1871-1901 census, but not james in 1871. i can't find a death record, or a marriage. anyone have any ideas?

thanx for the help guys, you're wonderful

[KiteRunner]

Kyle, have you found a birth registration entry for Ernest on FreeBMD? Because if you have then you could get his birth certificate and that will tell you Sarah's maiden name.

[KiteRunner]

Oh, I can't see an Ernest James Conway birth at the right time.

Now, this might just be a coincidence, but there is an Ernest James Ingle born Jul-Sep 1868 Lewisham, and a Florence Ingle born Jul-Sep 1870 Wandsworth. I wonder if we can find a Sarah Ingle on the earlier censuses?

[KiteRunner]

Ooh, yes! I've found a Sarah Ingle on the 1851 census who is age 12 and born Pimlico! Of course it could be a coincidence, but there aren't that many Sarah Ingles around:

HO107; Piece: 1477; Folio: 392; Page: 8
11 Commercial Rd., Belgrave, St George Hanover Square, Middlesex
George Ingle Head Mar 39 Clerk Fruiterer Leicestershire ?????
Sarah Do Wife Mar 44 Rutland ?????
Ann Do Daur U 17 Milliner Middlesex London
Jane Do Daur 15 Middlesex Pimlico
Sarah Do Daur 12 Do Do
Martha Do Daur 10 Scholar Do Do

[Christine in Herts]

Sarah CONWAY appears (RG11/647 fo 129 p 10) to be 33 in 1881 (the widowed one, with Ernest James, 12, b Lewisham, and Florence, 10, b Battersea, in tow)- which places her DoB in 1847-8, rather than 1839. At 14 Shellwood Terr, Latchmore Rd, Battersea.

The likely candidate in 1871 (RG10/4007 fo 10 p 13) is 22, an ironer, b Westminster, and has Honora (4 b Clerkenwell) and James (2 b St Luke's) with her in 3 George Yard, St Luke's (Finsbury). That would put Sarah's DoB as 1848-9.

Christine

PS - presume that these aren't yours then?

[KiteRunner]

Christine, Sarah has Ernest (age 2) and Florence (age 9 months) with her in Streatham in 1871 and her age is 32 on that one. She says she is married and her occupation is Butler's Wife.

RG10; Piece: 718; Folio: 46; Page: 11

[Christine in Herts]

Christine, Sarah has Ernest (age 2) and Florence (age 9 months) with her in Streatham in 1871 and her age is 32 on that one. She says she is married and her occupation is Butler's Wife.

RG10; Piece: 718; Folio: 46; Page: 11

That makes more sense! I was in my lunchbreak, and trying to be quick!

Christine

[Uncle John]

Sarah CONWAY appears (RG11/647 fo 129 p 10) to be 33 in 1881 (the widowed one, with Ernest James, 12, b Lewisham, and Florence, 10, b Battersea, in tow)- which places her DoB in 1847-8, rather than 1839. At 14 Shellwood Terr, Latchmore Rd, Battersea.

For reference it's Latchmere with an e (there's a railway junction of that name nearby!).

[Christine in Herts]

Sorry UJ, you're right. Another penalty of trying to be quick and not checking carefully enough.

Christine

[kylejustin]

yes, kiterunner, i havn't been able to find birth entries for florence or ernest james.told you they were a difficult family! butler's wife! i was told that james was a butler for my morton family, but because i can't find him on a census with his family it was a bit tricky to prove.

i can't find a marriage as i dont know where he was from.

the only florence i can find in the births is a florence bertha conway. as far as i know, she never had a middle name. its not on the census, or the marriage cert, or on her childrens birth certs.:o

but the sarah ingles is interesting, i will look for a marrriage.

[kylejustin]

i've found sarah conway in further censuses:

1891- battersea, london

sarah conway- b.1839, pimlico, london
ernest j. conway- b.1868, lewisham, kent

and 1901- battersea, london

sarah conway b.1839, westminster, london. an ironer

and i have florence in 1891 too.so, from my info, sarah was born in 1839, so she stuffed up on a census. my real problem is james. maybe he was living in the morton house that night? on the census as in 'problem'.

so, sarah stayed in london when florence and her family moved to yorkshire in 1900.

[KiteRunner]

I suppose she didn't want to move up there? Did Ernest stay down south?

As for looking for a marriage, my guess is that Sarah didn't actually marry James Conway and that is why the children were registered under her maiden name of Ingle. If you order the Florence Ingle birth certificate, then perhaps the address on it will be the same address that they are living at on the 1871 census, which would confirm it is the right one.

As for James Conway, it could be more difficult to track him down but I suppose we would have to look through all the James Conways on the census to try to find one who is a butler.

[Phoenix]

James Conway

A butler would be a live - in servant.

There is published the diary kept by a young footman in the 1830s. You could not tell from it that he was married and his wife bringing up a family. His wife lived separately his entire working life.

Such servants were expected to remain single.

If the children were given Ingle as a birth surname, this means Sarah was not married to James at that date.

From the information you have, you cannot tell whether "James Conway" was the father of both children, or a convenient fiction.

[kylejustin]

but she said she was a butler's wife. so she was like a housekeeper and mother in her home, while james was most likely living with the morton family.

would my mortons have frowned on him having a family? his daughter married their son, and that was an unusual thing.

also, there isn't a death cert for james. he died in between 1871-1881, so, that does this mean that freebmd hasn't got that list yet?

[kylejustin]

well, james wasn't living the morton's in 1861. i wonder where he was

[KiteRunner]

Kyle, how do you know that James worked for the Morton family rather than some other family, please? Also, how do you know that he died between those dates?

[KiteRunner]

also, there isn't a death cert for james. he died in between 1871-1881, so, that does this mean that freebmd hasn't got that list yet?

I should add that if you want to be sure it isn't on the index then you can easily search through the GRO death index quarter by quarter on ancestry, findmypast or Family Relatives just in case it is one that has been missed out by FreeBMD or not transcribed by them yet.

[kylejustin]

i know he died in that period because florence was born in 1870, and on the 1881 census, sarah said she was a widow. 10 year period for his death.

my aunt has a lot of family tales, and so far, they have all been true. plus, she knew florence, she was her grandma. more is known about florence and her kids than before her. but, the story of james being a butler turned out true. and sarah was living close to the mortons in 1871, but they moved in 1881 and the conways didnt follow. i have the census to support all this. im just trying to find out bout james.

by theway, you were right on sarah being an ingle. the evidence fits, plus there is a record for sarah ingle b. 1838, st george hanver square, another name for pimlico.

[KiteRunner]

Yes, all the evidence fits with her being Sarah Ingle but I think you would need to get the Florence Ingle birth certificate to make sure that it has mother Sarah on it (and probably no father's name) and then you will know for sure if it all fits together.

About James's death - my great-great-grandmother calls herself a widow on several censuses when her husband was actually still alive - they were separated and I suppose she thought it sounded more respectable to be a widow than separated. So it could be that Sarah was doing the same kind of thing. And you say "the story of James being a butler turned out true", but if I've understood correctly, no census entry (nor marriage or death cert) has been found yet for James himself giving his occupation as butler, and we can't take Sarah's description of herself as a butler's wife as proof of his occupation. Though it seems an unlikely occupation to make up, so I think it is likely it will turn out to be right.

[Uncle John]

A wife with a young child in my tree declared herself a widow when her husband was with his new "married" love and their young baby. The pretence didn't last long because all the adults were dead, mostly from TB, before the next census.