Talking of death certificates

[Glen in Tinsel Knickers]

I sent for one a while ago, a 1984 registration for my birth father.

Although i searched in the same name as the birth cert (and found a hit) it transpires he was born illegitimately and the cert had "Fred Smith otherwise Fred Jones" entered as name of deceased.

The informant was a brother, now bearing in mind the birth cert of the deceased appears to indicate the parents were married and all was above board presumably the brother must have told the registrar of the alternative surname? Who else would have known?

Is there any other way the registrar would have known if it were not for the details the informant gave? The death occured in a hospital, post mortem held but no inquest.

[Heather Positive Thinker]

No experience of this sort of thing Glen - does an alias have to mean he was illegitimate? I wouldnt have thought the registrar would have any sort of knowledge other than what the informant gave him.

[Glen in Tinsel Knickers]

I don't think it does have to mean illegitimate Heather,

it's just in this case there isn't a marriage for the parents although the birth cert would lead you to think otherwise. My granny seems to have taken the surname of her partner without the complications of things like weddings, she did it at least twice that i can tell. I can find her in the electoral register but unless she used an alias for the marriages then she never quite managed the "i do" bit.

The only other thing is the deceased was a bit of a so and so with the ladies (hence me now knowing i am one of fourteen kids he fathered), perhaps he swapped his names around, but then again the registrar still wouldn't know that would they?.

The result of this lot is a tree that stops at the grandparents on one side and goes 11 generations on the other, if the wind blows to strong it's gonna go over!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I wouldn't even know what name to search for for her death either. Turner, Townsend, Goddard or something different again.

[Heather Positive Thinker]

You have done SO well though Glen. Its been amazing what you have achieved in the last few years. I am very jealous and impressed

[Glen in Tinsel Knickers]

Aw shucks.



How much was it again, a fiver a compliment? quickly tosses empty wallet across room


Joking aside, i have managed to get a promise for the electoral roll lookup i need (details of the informant on the '84 death cert), if i can pin down the death of the informants wife i might have another angle to try and kick some life into this line, perhaps the address or informant from the cert might prove handy, i just hope it might be a son or daughter, at least i will know a bit more for a marriage search and head back/across as needed.

[Phoenix]

As my new found cousin tracked me down from a death cert from 1986: the informant, no relation, was in the same place after 20 yrs and she was still in touch with me after twenty years, so it is quite possible!

[Little Nell]

Glen

Are Smith and Jones the names of his parents - in which case I would guess he was trying to cover his illegitimacy.

What surname did the brother use on the certificate, and was he older or younger than your man?

[Glen in Tinsel Knickers]

Hi Nell

The birth cert shows;
James Townsend 12/05/1923, Lincoln, parents recorded as John Townsend, general labourer and Annie Townsend (formerly Turner).

The bmd also shows a John Townsend mmn Turner born Lincoln 1919 but i don't have that cert. The only marriage that fits the names is in Cambridge but it is pre 1900, without date or place of birth i can't find them in the 1901.

The 1984 death cert shows;
James Turner or James Townsend dob 12/05/1923, informant is John Townsend, brother, resident in Lincoln. I think it is reasonable to assume for now that the informant is the 1919 John, there are just the two births with the surname combo in Lincoln and one in Leicestershire in 1913

I checked the electoral roll for Lincoln around and found John and Annie listed at the addy from the birth cert from 1919 until 1926, by 1927 Annie had vanished but John snr remained. Annie then took up with a chap by the name of George Goddard but as far as i know they never married or had children together.

In 1945 James Townsend married, on his marriage cert his father is noted as James Townsend, bricklayers labourer, deceased. The marriage was in Middlesboro although James was resident in Lincoln (both the bride and groom were in the forces), one witness was G Goddard.

Apart from knowing that James had a daughter in 1947 and by 1949 had left his wife and daughter to start his campaign to single handedly repopulate the country there isn't much to tell. He flitted around, had kids as far apart as Devon and Newcastle, several in Lincoln to one woman then he met my mother in Lincoln by 1965 and hey presto here i am.

Try as i might i just cannot get anything concrete before 1923 (except the 1919 birth reference) nor can i say with any certainty where/when John snr and Annie Turner/Townsend/Goddard died.



I am hoping that the John Townsend brother was more settled in Lincoln and perhaps the death cert for his wife might help, her maiden name would be useful, knowing the name of the informant (hopefully a family member) may just be the breakthrough i need. If they had children then perhaps they may know some dates/places to look at but it still doesn't really get me back before 1919.

[Little Nell]

John was born before James, so less likely to be legitimate, but he uses his father's surname. I am wondering if James' romantic escapades (euphemism) meant he chose to use both surnames?

Not finding a marriage doesn't mean it didn't happen, just that it got missed off the index. I can't find one that I am certain occurred between 1879-81.

Getting John's birth cert would confirm it was the right chap and also give maybe another address to work back from.

Sorry I can't be much help.

[Glen in Tinsel Knickers]

I keep coming back to this one, if i tried to crack it all the time i would go potty:D

As for James using both names because of his antics i couldn't say but it wouldn't suprise me in the slightest. I have spoken to several of his kids (my half siblings) and not one of them can say much in his favour. One common comment though is he was a heavy drinking womaniser and that seems to hold true. His death cert shows cause of death is at least in part due to drink. Several have said how similiar i look to him but thankfully the similarity ends there.

The 1919 electoral roll does show John and Annie at the same address as the 1923 birth certificate, it might be worth a stab at the 1913 cert as that one is further south (and more towards the Cambridge area) but if the marriage was pre 1900 that suggests Annie was having kids quite late in life, not impossible i know but she may have been close to 50 by 1923 so it is less likely.

I couldn't even tie up the details from the pre 1900 cert with those from 1913, 1919 and 1923 anyway.

The only other explanations are as you say the marrige isn't in the index or Annie perhaps married as Ann/Anne or something completely different. I reckon this is the one lot where the 1911 census might tell me something i don't already know, all my other lines are pretty much sorted from 1901 to 1911.

I think the only chance i have is if John born 1919 or perhaps one of his children (if any) are still around and know something but i have a suspicion that whatever the truth is, it went to the grave long ago.

[Glen in Tinsel Knickers]

Oh ******

i struck lucky and someone did the electoral lookup i needed this morning, now i know the name of the wife and an extra couple of initials for John. These extra initials don't appear alongside any birth index entries, the couple dissappear after 1986 and there isn't a likely match for the wife in the death index or any for him either with or without the initials up to the latest date of the index. :(

[Phoenix]

Your Dad may have died a quarter of a century ago, but it's not impossible that his brother is still alive. If he is in Lincoln, can you trawl backwards for his marriage?

[Glen in Tinsel Knickers]

I think that is the only option left, at least i know the christian name of the wife now so it is possible to cross check with a bit more certainty.

I just hope the marriage wasn't miles away when he was doing national service though, it would be too easy to dismiss a marriage that is miles away. Best start at about 1979 i reckon, the electorall rolls suggest he was married then, i might have to go back as far as 1940 or thereabouts

I could be gone some time.............................................. ......

[Janet]

Glen,

Having been searching for Grandparents' marriage for about 10 years, and just last month, found a marriage of my grandparents in 1923, (through BMD going to 1929)13 years after the last child was born, and 22 years after the first child was born, nothing is impossible! I had given up after trawling to 1911 but my message is keep going!

Janet

[Glen in Tinsel Knickers]

I'll get there in the end Janet. I traced a half brother whi is now a half sister If i can do that then i can find just about anything :D

I solved a census mystery for someone on GR at the weekend, it took about fifteen minutes, it was the fourth time they had posted the request in two years and no one had got remotely close.