Reply received from ROYAL NAVY with request for WW2 records

[Liz from Lancs]

Following my thread re my Uncle Pat and all the help you gave identifying his uniform and death etc, here is the reply from the Navy. I think this applies to all post 1939 records. Will it be of help to the Wiki? Would need someone else to put it on there for me if it is. I also have scanned a copy of the details of kinship form. It might all make someone think twice before applying for records. I am not going to go any further with it.

FLEET HEADQUARTERS
Director of Naval Personnel
Disclosure Cell
Room 48
West Battery
Whale Island
Portsmouth
Hampshire
P028DX

IMPORTANT INFORMATION. YOUR GENEALOGICAL REQUEST FOR RN/RM DATA

Thank you for your recent enquiry regarding the service record of your deceased relative. To assist us in searching the archive it would be helpful if you could complete the enclosed 'Certificate of Kinship' form as fully as possible. Personal information from the service record of deceased ex-Servicemen and women can only be released to the official Next-of-Kin; if you are not, you will be required to provide the written consent of the Next-of-Kin named in Part 2 of the form - 'Details of Kinship'.

For all applications where the deceased person died following their discharge from Service, you are required to provide proof of death i.e. a photocopy of the Death Certificate (or a copy of their published obituary). Sufficient evidence is also required to enable a genealogical link to be established between you and the person about whom you are enquiring, e.g. photocopies of Full Birth Certificate, Marriage Certificate, Full Adoption Certificate, Decree Absolute, Change of Name Deed etc.

A fixed, non-refundable fee of £30 is chargeable for this service, to defray the cost of searching, locating, retrieving and copying any records that may be found. However, the fee is waived where the applicant is the spouse of the deceased. Please forward a cheque drawn on a UK Bank for £30 Sterling {crossed AlC payee} made payable to "The Accounting Officer MOD ", and return it, with the completed Certificate of Kinship form and other relevant documents to the address at the head of this letter.

Although rare, there is a small risk that the record you have requested may not be found. In the case of service records covering the Second World War (1939-45), this could be due to the information being amongst those documents destroyed during the conflict.

PLEASE NOTE, INCOMPLETE APPLICATIONS Will BE RETURNED UNPROCESSED.

[Little Nell]

"Disclosure cell" sounds ominous, or am I just paranoid because I am reading about Stalin?!

[Liz from Lancs]

Nell! I know what you mean. The first address I wrote to had Data Protection I think in the title.

For the little info I am likely to get, it isn't worth the money and effort. I wait eagerly though for his marriage cert to arrive from GRO. Thanks to Merry, found that for 1936.

This is the wording on the Details of Kinship form:

Request for Service Details of a Deceased Ex-Serviceman/woman
Certificate of Kinship

Information from the personal record of a deceased Ex-serviceman/woman can be released only with the consent of the official Next of Kin. This form aims to identify whose consent is required and the data you provide will be used only in connection with your enquiry. This form is retained for 2 years should you have subsequent queries.

Part 1 - DETAILS OF DECEASED SERVICEMAN/WOMAN

Surname
Full Forenames
Official Service and/or Civilian Staff Number
National Insurance Number
Service Career, e.g. Date(s) of joining / leaving Service (RN, RNR, RNVR, RNIVR, etc)
Date of Birth
State clearly the information you require, with dates where known e.g. naval records whilst serving at HMS Centurion 1990-1993

Part 2 - DETAILS OF KINSHIP

Information from the personal record of the deceased Ex-Serviceman/woman can be released only to the official Next of Kin.

The official Next is the first Person in the following list that is still alive.

Read the list below, when you come to the first living relative, tick the box and write their full names next to it.

List of Relatives:

Widow/widower
Son/Daughter
Grandchild
Father/Mother
Brother/Sister
Nephew/Niece
Grandparent
Other

If you are not the official Next of Kin you must send us the written authority of the person named above for the information to be released to you. Now please complete Part 2.

Part 2 -DECLARATION WARNING! It is an offence knowingly to withhold relevant information or to give false information.

To the best of my knowledge the information I have given is correct and as full as possible.

Surname (Block Capitals) Signature Date

Forenames (In Full) Full Address and Tel. No.

Please return this form to the address given. You must enclose also:

a. The written authority of the Next of Kin, if not yourself.

b. Evidence of the ex-serviceman's/woman's death (e.g. a photocopy of the Death Certificate) if he/she died after discharge from the Service.)

c. Evidence of the link with you, if appropriate ie marriage certificate, birth certificate, etc.

d. If you are NOT the surviving spouse of the deceased, Payment [Cheque for £30 made payable to: 'The Accounting Officer MOD'.]

[Peppie]

I was always led to belive that WW2 records were given to the service man on discharge..... Is this not correct?

[Liz from Lancs]

Peppie - it's all very new to me. So I am not sure. They might do but keep the originals for their archives.

[Merry Monty Montgomery]

I was always led to belive that WW2 records were given to the service man on discharge..... Is this not correct?

I don't know about the RN, but it's not the case for the army.

Also, I'm sure if servicemen were given a copy at discharge, they would be charged for obtaining a "second" copy now? (but they are not charged)

[merleyone]

An uncle of mine who served with the RN right through the war was given his certificate of service when he was demobbed in 1946.
As a matter of interest, the certificate gave a physical description, details of birth, birthplace, next of kin etc as well as the ships he served on. It did not of course, elaborate on what he had got up to during the war and it was only through researching the ships themselves that it was discovered he had actually been with the Royal Navy Commandos for most of the war. I had never heard of them but discovered they served on land at the sharpest end in many of the battle areas. This was the reason for hs collection of war medals which includede not only the Atlantic Star but also the North African
medal, Italy Star and France and Germany medal.

Merleyone

[Janet]

Originally posted by Liz from Lancs

"I think this applies to all post 1939 records."

You will find that the above records apply to ALL records post 1922 at the present, as all the records after that date are still with the MOD for both Army and Navy. Pre 1922 the records are at TNA Kew.

With regard to the fact that records for 1939 to 1945 may have been destroyed, this may or may not be strictly correct. I have my father's records for RN from 1919 to 1921 from TNA and his other records were sent to me from the RN on payment, which covered the years 1922 to 1944. A message was enclosed to say that his final year of 1944 to 1945could not be found and may have been destroyed in the raids of Second World War. I know he was demobbed in the summer of 1945 so wonder what did happen to that last year. It may become apparent when the MOD releases these records to the general public, but this will not happen until 75 years after end of Second W War so from 1945, 75 years on will be about 2020.

However, one must also remember that if the information contains any sensitive information, that this will also be withheld until the 75 years are up, so that records may not have been destroyed, just withheld from you, without explanation from the MOD, and the fact that information MAY have been destroyed in air raids is a good cover for everything!

If it does go into the Wikki I suggest it also contains the address for the Army and Airforce Departments as it can get wearing repeating the addresses every time someone comes on with this sort of query.

Armed Forces Personnel Adminsitration Agency (Glasgow)
Kentigern House
65 Brown Street
Glasgow
G2 8EX

Tel: 0141 224 3600/ 0800 085 3600

I am sorry I have been unable to find the Airforce one. Anyone want to add this one?

[Vicky the Viking]

I was always led to belive that WW2 records were given to the service man on discharge..... Is this not correct?

The following applies to service in the navy.

My dad joined up in 1942 but signed on for 12 years, & was actually discharged in 1955. Obviously this includes a lot of peace-time service, the 2 periods haven't been separated.

He WAS given his records when he left, its a total of 4 foolscap sides on a sort-of linen, which is definitely archival quality. As he kept EVERYTHING (even his first driving licence!) I am fairly confident this is the sum total of what he received.

As Merleyone says, it covers all his service 1942-1955, but its really only a summary. It lists all the ships & shore establishments he was on, with dates, details of promotions & awards, medals, and NOK & personal details.
It doesn't detail (eg) rates of pay, or exactly where the ships went, or what he did on all his training courses, or what he sort of job he did while on a shore-based establishment for 12 months (I do know though, cos he told me

There is loads I'd like to know, but its all nitty-gritty & I bet wouldn't be kept by the MOD anyway. Like a disciplinary matter involving swearing at a member of the Royal Family (which may or may not be true).

As for what you'd get if you applied for his records, I was told only a summary, though whether it would be exactly the same as that which I already have I can't say.

[Janet]

Vicky

I do not know whether my father's original records were received by him or not when he left the navy. You are lucky indeed to have the original versions, and you probably would get no more than you already have if you were to apply to the MOD. In fact I would say that in your case you would be wasting your time and money in applying for any more. I applied for my father's records through the MOD in 1998 at a lesser cost of £25, long after his death, and although I was not strictly speaking next of kin, as I have an older brother, totally uninterested in Family History, I did manage to obtain these records from the MOD after some discussion.

The records were split into two, as far as I was concerned. I found his enlistment through TNA as he joined in 1919, but that only gave me details for his ships to 1922. The MOD supplied me with the rest of the information from 1922 until 1944, and it simply consisted of one page detailing all the ships he was on, and his various ranks and that included his shore establishments. To me it was very well worth having, as the information not only corroborated what I knew already, but made it also official and I have done some research since on the ships on which he served.

The actual day to day minutiae may not be available until much later although the wartime records may never become available, as I was told that detailed musters were not written during the wartime period. If you are being torpedoed and shelled and bombed from the air, then survival is going to come before writing down exactly what is happening within the close confinements of a ship or submarine. The best most of us is going to get are the ships in which are ancestors served, and armed with this knowledge you then research where those ships were at given times and follow the battles in which those ships took part. and you can do that now.

If you have famous ships like HMS Barham HMS Hood HMS Glorious etc on your list then you can research these online as well as through the National Archves Kew at:

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/

Imperial War Museums London: http://www.iwm.org.uk/

Imperial War Museum Manchester: http://north.iwm.org.uk/

Greenwich Maritime Museum at Greenwich: http://www.nmm.ac.uk/


Other ships can be found by googling

Janet

[Vicky the Viking]

Janet, yes as you say, I probably wouldn't get any additional information, which is why I haven't applied. If the story about the disciplinary offence is true, I would expect its subject to the Official Secrets Act anyway, so will probably have a 100 year closure on it, (that's if its not subject to indefinite closure as I believe some of the Royal stuff is).

I know what you mean about detailed logs, though even in wartime they did try to keep up to date with their movements. And even under fire, someone has to navigate & keep things going. I have gleaned a lot of info about where the ships were from all sorts of sites (isn't Google great!) and my dad did also keep his own log of what he got up to on some of his postings (though this is very brief & doesn't detail the exact position of the ships - as he was a telegraphist I think he would have had a very good idea, but it was probably the sort of stuff that would get censored)

We will probably never really know what our parents and grandparents went through in the name of freedom.

[Janet]

Vicky,

Sadly we may never know the full details of what our folk got up to in these troubled times, but I did find a lot on the "Vasna", a Hospital Ship by googling, and it showed me pictures of the the inside as well as the outside of the ship, which went a long way to understanding what life was like on board for my father when I knew he was on board this ship from 1941 to 1945.

Janet

[Haydn]

My Dad served in the Royal Navy from 1937 to 1949, when he left he was given all his service records, the main info is on linen,these i now have in my possession, and have been a invaluable source of info in my quest to document his RN career, which he never really talked about. Without this info i doubt if i would have found out some of the incidents he was involved in.
One in particular stands out when he was aboard HMS Fiji in May 1941 when the ship was sunk by enemy aircraft off the Island of Crete in Suda Bay, only 243 survived out of 750,, and most of the survivors spent about 12 hours in the sea awaiting rescue, other ships could not stop to rescue them for fear of becoming targets themselves.

If only he was still here so could ask him the thousand one questions i have, just an ordinary man you may say, but to me one of the many heroes of that time.

If you have the chance to obtain the records thn get them you never know what you find.

[Liz from Lancs]

Thanks for all the interesting contributions on this subject.

[Patti]

Its a shame isnt it, It so annoying, I mean if you had all those items they want to see, you might not need their help, I had a similar response about my Grand dad when I contacted the Coldstream Guards, I gave up.

[Liz from Lancs]

I agree Patti. There is no way I can trace his wife and child and their possible descendants.

I am okay with it as I have so much more info from the help people gave on here finding my Uncle Pat's death details etc than when I posted my original thread.