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  • Marriage laws?

    If a minor were to marry in the 1860's was it law that a parent or guardian be witness to the marriage?

    Thanks

  • #2
    They didn't have to be a witness, but they (or one of them) had to give their concent to the marriage beforehand.

    If there were no parents or legal guardians then they couple would have to go before a court (magistrates court) and they would give their approval (it was rare for them to say No!)

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    • #3
      Obviously this was all only the case if the minor didn't tell a porkie about their age! lol

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      • #4
        Thanks Merry,

        It's just that I've got a marriage certificate here and although the groom gives his age as 19 later census returns suggest he was younger, the bride gives her age as 18 but the census suggest she was older. No family members as witnesses and I'm even wondering if they have given false names for their fathers as I cannot find either bride or groom with thier fathers previous to the marriage, of course the father's could have died after the birth but before the census, I realise that, but none of it is ' gelling' if you know what I mean. I have the birth certificate of their son so I'm quite sure that I have the correct marriage. Typical Holden's !

        Wheres OC lol.

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        • #5
          I should add that I have ordered a few birth certs of the groom but they do not show the same father that is named on the marriage cert so I am running out of options!!

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          • #6
            If they gave their ages as under 21 then someone is going to have had to give consent.

            Do you want to give some details? The summer holidays don't begin for another hour and 25 mins! lol

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            • #7
              Well I've got 24 more hours of freedom than you have, lol

              Groom, Bachelor Thomas Holden, married at manchester Cathedral on the 28th Feb 1864 saying that he is 19.
              He is an Iron driller and says that his father is Edward Holden, Weaver.
              Bride, spinster, Hannah Collins, says that she is 18 and the daughter of Joseph Collins, Butcher.Both residing at 28 Teignmouth Street.

              Census' consistantly show both to be born in Manchester.

              71 census he is 24 Iron Planner she is 24
              81 census he is 34 iron Planner she is 34
              91 census he is 45 iron Planner she is 46
              01 census he is 53 metal planner/ machine maker she is 54

              I think I may have Edward on the '61 at Cleggs yard, newton Heath aged 16 Mechanic Fitter in Iron Works in the household of William Holden aged 27.

              I just know that some one on here is going to find Thomas with Edward in the space of about five minutes:o

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              • #8
                lol 50 minutes!

                Do you have a birth cert for one of their children giving both parents names? if yes, which child is it?

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                • #9
                  John Holden born 5th Nov 1885.
                  Birth in the sub district of Ardwick number 8 God....n Street, Gorton (cant quite make out the street name).
                  Son of Thomas Holden, Iron Planner and Hannah Holden formerly Collins.

                  Birth registered by Hannah Holden X her mark.
                  Did not sign with an X when married.
                  Last edited by Keptin Thedark; 22-07-08, 11:33.

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                  • #10
                    In the 1841 census there's an Edward Holden aged 25 here:

                    Class: HO107; Piece 580; Book: 11; Civil Parish: Manchester; County: Lancashire; Enumeration District: 23; Folio: 32; Page: 15; Line: 14; GSU roll: 438732.


                    He has a William Holden aged 5 with him. Could this be the Thomas' brother William who is 27 in 1861? Edward's occ is "something something weaver" (I think!)
                    Last edited by Merry Monty Montgomery; 22-07-08, 11:37.

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                    • #11
                      Just going to have a look
                      Thats Power Loom Weaver for Edward.

                      Yes I think it may be,
                      Quick work Merry!

                      I need someone from Lancashire to tell me if someone born in Chorlton would say born Manchester on a census taken in Manchester? Geographically, how far is Chorlton upon Medlock from Manchester city?
                      If we can find them in '51 we will have a better idea if it's them or not?

                      Just asking so I can arrange my thoughts better.

                      Dont answer that!
                      I can see Civil Parish Manchester Hundred Manchester
                      Last edited by Keptin Thedark; 22-07-08, 11:47.

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                      • #12
                        There are some Edward Holden deaths in 1857/8 in Manchester, so if either is Edward from 1841 then he should be on the 1851, but he is not coming out of the woodwork at the moment!

                        Was it just Liverpool census that got wet or was that Manchester too? (Or was it Manchester in 1861, not 1851??)

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                        • #13
                          Not sure Merry, but I do think that a genealogical conspiracy surrounds all Lancashire research, be it census, BMD's or church registers and if anyone is lucky enough to get through it they will most likely find that their roots lie in Ireland and we all know what a nightmare that can be!!
                          Last edited by Keptin Thedark; 22-07-08, 12:15.

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                          • #14
                            Yes, it was Manchester 1851 as well and it is available on FamilyHistoryOnline.
                            KiteRunner

                            Every five years or so I look back on my life and I have a good... laugh"
                            (Indigo Girls, "Watershed")

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                            • #15
                              Thanks for that Kiterunner.

                              Well I've found one more birth I'm prepared to shell out on based on Merry's '41 census findings.

                              I'm stopping for lunch then I'm off to the mini olympics (kids sports day).
                              Thank for your help Merry and Kite.

                              And if anyone else is up to the challenge;)

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                              • #16
                                I had some credit on Family Historyonline which was about to run out so had a look for this family and think I have found them listed in the "Unfilmed 1851 Census transcripts:

                                1851 census of Chorlton on Medlock
                                10 Back Allen Street
                                Willam Holden lodger aged 18 piecer cotton

                                12 Back Allen Street
                                Edward Holden Head 37 weaver
                                Mary Holden wife 38 weaver
                                James Holden son 15 weaver
                                Thos Holden son 5

                                Edward born Staffordshire Burton, all the others born Manchester.
                                Judith passed away in October 2018

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                                • #17
                                  It's not looking promising that Thomas was registered for birth. The 1841 and 1851 census address for this family is the same. If Thomas was born at the same address then that would be Chorlton District, but there isn't a registration for a Thomas Holden there until the end of 1847. (and that one has a middle name)

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                                  • #18
                                    Chorlton-on-Medlock is a short walk from Manchester city centre. Chorlton or Chorlton-cum-Hardy are a lot further south


                                    Map of Hulme and Chorlton on Medlock, Manchester UK

                                    Last edited by Pat Hope; 22-07-08, 14:27.
                                    PAT

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                                    • #19
                                      Chorlton-on-Medlock is a short walk from Manchester city centre. Chorlton or Chorlton-cum-Hardy are a lot further south

                                      I don't know Lancs at all. so I'm a bit confused.....

                                      Genuki has both of those places in Chorlton District until they were both eventually transfered to manchester district after 1890. Are you saying Chorlton upon Medlock is actually in another district?

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                                      • #20
                                        Hi Merry--------I was just showing where the districts were geographically. C-on-M is quite a way from C-cum-H
                                        PAT

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