calling all cause of death experts!

[karensainsbury]

Evening all

I know this isn't really a genealogical query, but I'm really fed up & I thought maybe someone could help.

My father-in-law was admitted to hospital a fortnight ago with an infected finger and, much to our shock & dismay, died of a heart attack on Monday. We hoped the pm results would explain all, but we've just received them & they give the cause of death as pneumonia - no mention of the heart attack(3 actually - he was revived twice). This result is also distressing as we took him in blankets on Saturday after he phoned to say he had been freezing cold-put in a bed next to an open window with only a sheet.

Is there anyone out there who's used to deciphering death certs who can shed some light on this? I can't bear to think he died because the hospital didn't give him a blanket!

[Little Nell]

Pneumonia is an inflamation of the lungs that often occurs after an existing illness. There are lots of diffent types and it can be caused by virus, bacteria, parasite etc.

If you are concerned about the care he received at the hospital, you need to take that up with the hospital. As for the influence of the heart attack, you'd need to speak to his consultant.

Deciphering cause of death won't help, as the cause of death is given as pneumonia, though I am surprised that's all it says. All the modern death certs I have give at least 3 and usually 4 causes.

[karensainsbury]

There was one other cause given but that was no help- necessary surgery to an infected finger - I can't see how that's a cause of death at all. The top of his finger was amputated almost as soon as he got to the hospital.
I just wondered if anyone has come across a similar case where pneumonia is given as the cause of death when there was something much more obvious ie the heart attacks, and why this would be.

[Christine in Herts]

I agree with Nell. It does look like something you need to follow up through the consultant &/or the GP.

Christine

[karensainsbury]

Thanks Nell & Christine, but I think I feel worse now. I was hoping him getting so cold was nothing to do with it. Would they just put pneumonia as cause of death if the pneumonia caused the heart attack, do you think?

[Olde Crone Holden]

Karen

(So sorry to hear about this, my condolences to you and your family).

Pneumonia was the thing which caused his death, not the heart attacks - he survived those. Pneumonia strikes those who are immobile for whatever reason, and who cannot cough properly, allowing the virus to get deep into the lungs and take hold.

I am a bit jaundiced about death certs, well, the ones in my immediate family anyway, because they give a cause of death which does not tell the full story, in my opinion.

I have read - and I don't know just how true this is - that there is a certain amount of political persuasion brought to bear on the described causes of death, in order that the government may make claims of reductions in various illnesses.

OC

[Pamdidle]

Karen.

When my MIL died the hospital said it was cancer, and that went on the death cert. But when the post mortem was done she had died from Haemorrhagic (sp) pneumonia, and hadnt got any cancer at all. So we have an incorrect death cert which cannot be altered :(

[Merry Monty Montgomery]

This must be very distressing for you, Karen - there's a lot to take in when something like this happens unexpectedly.

My mother-in-law died of pneumonia and that is all that is on the death cert (in Feb 2003). She was only ill for a matter of three or four hours, but the level of toxins in her body were more than her organs could cope with and she had a cardiac arrest, which isn't mentioned on the death cert.

I just asked OH about it and he said when he asked the Drs about this they said that it was the pneumonia that caused the other things to happen. Without the pneumonia the other symptoms wouldn't have occurred and that is why they are not mentioned on the cert - the cause of death being the pneumonia alone. I obviously can't say for certain, but in your father-in-law's case maybe the heart problems he experienced were symptoms of the pneumonia?

[Olde Crone Holden]

I should have said...

We queried the cause of death on my mum's death cert (the doctor's certificate). This meant that a post mortem was ordered and, because we had queried the cause of death, it had to be done in another county. We had to pay the expenses of having her body transported there and back for the pm.

The cause of death came back the same, and it was all for nothing really. The Coroner said he was satisfied and would not allow an inquest, which is what we had wanted.

We tried to pursue the matter with the hospital authorities, but after two years, we admitted defeat, because NO ONE was going to admit that anything had been done wrong. My mum would probably have died anyway, but of course we just do not know that.

OC

[Christine in Herts]

And I'm sorry - I missed out on the most basic part of my first reply - which should have been to offer my condolences on such a sad occasion, aggravated by the feeling (whether or not it's justified) that you haven't been given all the information.

Christine

[karensainsbury]

Thank you all very much for your kind responses. At least I understand now why the pneumonia was given as the cause of death rather than the heart attacks. Does the family have the right to see the full report from a pm, which I presume is quite comprehensive, or only the info given on the death cert?

[Olde Crone Holden]

Karen

Not sure if you have the right to see the pm report.

Mum's GP came to the house and told us what it said, in detail, but he didn't have the report with him. (He too had concerns about mum's death, but would not back us when it came down to it).

OC

[karensainsbury]

It sounds as tho going to the GP might be the best first course of action, then. I have this niggling doubt at the back of my mind, because when my grandmother was terminally ill & unconscious, 30 years ago, my parents went to visit her & found she had been left by an open window with only a sheet & subsequently died of pneumonia. I think it was accepted in those days as a way of "helping people on their way", but wouldn't have thought it was still accepted practice nowadays. Also, if they'd written him off, so to speak, I can't see why they'd go to such lengths to try to revive him.

[Little Nell]

I may be way off, but your query seems to be that you are concerned he had pneumonia because he was exposed to cold air.

I do think you need to talk about your concerns, if not to someone at the hospital, then perhaps your father's GP.

But querying cause of death is often a symptom of grief and difficulty in accepting death, its part of the grieving process. (((hugs)))

[Olde Crone Holden]

It certainly sounds to me that he was badly nursed at best, and I cannot see why ANY patient would be left by an open window with only a sheet to cover them.

I think the GP is your next port of call. He will tell you how to make a formal complaint to the Hospital, if that is what you decide to do.

There is a condition called hospital-acquired pneumonia, and again, good nursing would have spotted this in time for treatment to start.

In my mum's case, she had a "silent" heart attack at home. The GP wasn't sure she had had a heart attack, but started treatment anyway and sent her to hospital.

While she was waiting to be assessed she had another "silent" heart attack but the staff failed to do anything, despite the fact that she was vomiting and the GP had said she was a suspected heart attack when requesting her admission - my dad heard him say it.

She wasn't seen by a doctor until nine hours after she had arrived at hospital and she greeted him by having her third, and fatal, heart attack.

Cause of death was given as heart failure. As a family, we did not feel that this covered the circumstances of her death, but as I said earlier, we got nowhere with it, other than a wishy washy promise that "procedures for admission will be re-assessed".

OC

[karensainsbury]

OC, I am sorry, that sounds awful. The death of a loved one is hard to accept at the best of times, but feeling that it could, or should, have been prevented makes it a lot worse, doesn't it?

[brenmac]

nearly all death certificates say pnuemonia,as one of the causes,even cancer patients its alway pnuemonia.im so sorry and what a shock,hugs brenda xxx