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  • Problem death cert!

    Right, so here's a problem I haven't looked at for ten years at least.......I haven't looked at it today either, with all the extra available online records, so lets hope someone can get to the bottom of it! lol

    I an trying to establish what happened to one of the "wives" of OH's g-g-grandfather, William Cotton.

    The first of his two common-law wives was Emma Packer. She and William got together in St Pancras, London in about 1845. They had two children born in London and then moved to Southampton, where they had two more children that I know of: Samuel Charles Cotton b 17th Feb 1851 and Alexander Cotton who was born about 1852 but doesn't seem to have been registered, so I can only presume he was Emma's child.

    By the 1861 census, William Cotton had moved on to his next common-law wife - OH's g-g-grandmother, Ann Renyard. Their first known child together was William Cotton b 1st May 1861.

    So, what happened to Emma?

    We bought a death cert for an Emma Cotton. This Emma died aged 29 on 12th Dec 1854. Our Emma was recorded as aged 27 in April 1851. The death was registered by a William Cotton, but he was recorded as the deceased's father. Also his occupation was recorded as "a turner" when the only occupation William seems to have had was brushmaker or brushfinisher (on every census and all his children's birth certs, baps etc etc). The address on the death cert is "West Quay, Southampton", which is near the various locations our William lived (he moved house all the time though!)

    So, is this death cert for someone else (and if so, who?), or is it just filled out incorrectly?

  • #2
    Merry, I wouldn't be too worried about the husband being recorded as "Father".

    My great great grandad's first wife died, and he registered the death and he was described as "Father". It couldn't have been Father in Law because he had died.

    I will have a look in 1851.

    Remembering: Cuthbert Gregory 1889 - 1916, George Arnold Connelly 1886 - 1917, Thomas Lowe Davenport 1890 - 1917, Roland Davenport Farmer 1885 - 1916, William Davenport Sheffield 1879 - 1915, Cuthbert Gregory 1918 - 1944

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    • #3
      Could this be the Emma whose death cert you have.

      1851

      Source Citation: Class: HO107; Piece: 1669; Folio: 1023; Page: 17; GSU roll: 193576-193577.

      It is the only possible Emma who was born c1825 with keyword of Southampton with anything that is likely to be a similar surname.

      Remembering: Cuthbert Gregory 1889 - 1916, George Arnold Connelly 1886 - 1917, Thomas Lowe Davenport 1890 - 1917, Roland Davenport Farmer 1885 - 1916, William Davenport Sheffield 1879 - 1915, Cuthbert Gregory 1918 - 1944

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      • #4
        Hmmm....well Emma Compton does seem to vanish between 1851 and 1861 (no obvious marriage) though there is a death in Winchester district in 1854. Her father is a carrier in 1851 and in 1861 and the family are at the same address both times (completely unheard of in Southampton! lol) ....so this one seems vaguely possible, rather than likely. The trouble is people come and go in ports like Southampton, seemingly more so than other places.........:(

        When we got the death cert we didn't have any way of searching the census for other candidates, so have been sitting on the death cert ever since! I see we bought it in 1994! lol

        Thanks for looking though, Tom

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        • #5
          Can't see anything else though Merry :(

          Remembering: Cuthbert Gregory 1889 - 1916, George Arnold Connelly 1886 - 1917, Thomas Lowe Davenport 1890 - 1917, Roland Davenport Farmer 1885 - 1916, William Davenport Sheffield 1879 - 1915, Cuthbert Gregory 1918 - 1944

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          • #6
            Good to have a second pair of eyes though Tom

            Thanks!

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            • #7
              What does it say for Emma's occupation on the death cert, Merry?
              KiteRunner

              Every five years or so I look back on my life and I have a good... laugh"
              (Indigo Girls, "Watershed")

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              • #8
                There is an Emma Packer death registered in Pancras Sep 1861, but probably just a coincidence. Of course we don't get the age for that one (yet).
                KiteRunner

                Every five years or so I look back on my life and I have a good... laugh"
                (Indigo Girls, "Watershed")

                Comment


                • #9
                  Kate, I presume it said "Wife of William Cotton, a turner". It wouldn't say anywhere else where his occupation was given on her death cert.

                  Remembering: Cuthbert Gregory 1889 - 1916, George Arnold Connelly 1886 - 1917, Thomas Lowe Davenport 1890 - 1917, Roland Davenport Farmer 1885 - 1916, William Davenport Sheffield 1879 - 1915, Cuthbert Gregory 1918 - 1944

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                  • #10
                    Just a thought, but do you know if William's father was also called William?

                    That would possibly account for him describing himself as "father" if he registered the death, the Victorians being well known for assuming family relationships they didn't have!

                    OC

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                    • #11
                      Tom, No, it says Daughter of William Cotton, a turner!!

                      OC.....Hmmmm....Yes William's father was also William, but why would that encourage this William, "husband" of Emma, to say he was her father? William's father died about 20 years earlier in St Pancras.

                      I suppose Emma might not have died? When we did the original research we had no idea about the number of Victorians who went through various relationships that didn't fit with our perception of Victorian Morals!

                      Mind you we did learn a bit, as William Cotton had been married to someone else in 1839. A few years later his wife paired up with a man who was the lodger in their house in 1841 and married him in the register office. Meanwhile William paired up with Emma and went to Southampton. Then William paired up with a local woman (OH's gg-grandmother) and when she died he married his fourth partner, as by that time his original wife had died in London. Their must have been communication between the London and Southampton families as William C sent his sons to work in London and they all married within a convoluted ring of cousins and other relations.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by KiteRunner View Post
                        There is an Emma Packer death registered in Pancras Sep 1861, but probably just a coincidence. Of course we don't get the age for that one (yet).

                        I'll see if I can see her in 1861........

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                        • #13
                          The trouble with form filling, you never quite know the question asked. William could have been "father" and Emma "mother" within a victorian household. It might get round the awkward business of there being no marriage certificate.
                          Phoenix - with charred feathers
                          Researching Skillings from Norfolk, Sworn from Salisbury and Adams in Malborough, Devon.

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                          • #14
                            But going by the censuses, William was only 5 years older than Emma - would the registrar have believed he was her father?
                            KiteRunner

                            Every five years or so I look back on my life and I have a good... laugh"
                            (Indigo Girls, "Watershed")

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Trying to get my head round this and thinking out loud

                              Is this William with Ann in 1861?

                              RG9 piece 678, folio 62, page 30

                              If it is, there is another son Frederick born c1856. Who was his mother? If it was Emma then she can't have died in 1854. There is a Frederick Thomas Cotton b Q/E Dec 1855 Southampton which could be him.

                              (Ignore all this if the 1861 is the wrong one)

                              Jackie
                              Jackie

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                              • #16
                                woops, sorry Merry I was thinking of my tree where she is described as "The wife of..." but then in the bit about the informant it says father.

                                Remembering: Cuthbert Gregory 1889 - 1916, George Arnold Connelly 1886 - 1917, Thomas Lowe Davenport 1890 - 1917, Roland Davenport Farmer 1885 - 1916, William Davenport Sheffield 1879 - 1915, Cuthbert Gregory 1918 - 1944

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                                • #17
                                  Ignore the Frederick Thomas Cotton birth reg above if the IGI is correct because there is one there with parents Frederick and Jane. Would still be interested to know who the 1861 census Frederick's mother was though.

                                  Jackie
                                  Jackie

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                                  • #18
                                    Oops, I forgot about Frederick!


                                    Frederick Cotton on the 1861 census was the illegitimate son of Ann Renyard (the "wife" in the household) and Joseph Gregory who was married to someone else! Frederick was registered as Frederick George Renyard. Frederick "became" a Cotton when Ann Renyard got together with William Cotton.

                                    Last edited by Merry Monty Montgomery; 08-07-08, 20:50.

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                                    • #19
                                      Merry

                                      I'm not sure if this will help or not, but I live in Southampton and am planning a trip to the Local Studies section of the library within the next couple of weeks. I can have a look at the parish records/directories/monument inscriptions if you wish.

                                      Many of the parish records are transcribed in the Archives at the City Centre, so that may be another option to try. We are also very lucky here that the Bereavement Services dept can supply a list of burials for a particular name/surname. I have found this invaluable when looking for an ancestors burial, as it will often show me who else they were buried with.

                                      Let me know if the above is of any help.

                                      Theresa

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                                      • #20
                                        Oooh Terri!!!

                                        I will ask OH a bit later, but I think there may be a couple of things he might need - possibly not connected with the above dilemma!!

                                        Do you mean the Special Collections Library?? Or is the local studies one different?

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