Old Style Calendar.

[Keptin Thedark]

Have I got this right?

March 1616 was before Jan 1616?

Thanks

[Olde Crone Holden]

Um, depends what date in March, lol!

The old style year went from 26th March to 25th March. However, some clerics started on the 1st March...

OC

[KiteRunner]

It depends which date in March you are talking about, because the year used to start on the 25th of March (Lady Day). Oh, sorry, maybe it was the 26th!

[Keptin Thedark]

March 29th.......

[KiteRunner]

Yes, the 29th March 1616 would have been before January 1616. But if you get a date between Jan 1st and 25th March from somewhere like the IGI, you can never be sure if the transcriber has "corrected" it!

[Keptin Thedark]

Ok, I have Mary daughter of Thomas baptised 29 March 1612 then another Mary daughter of Thomas baptised 7th Jan 1616, only to find in the burial records that Mary was buried in 1616 march 29. At first I assumed it was the death of the first Mary and so the couple named their newborn daughter Mary but now looking at it I'm wondering if it is the burial of the second Mary, if so why have i not come across the burial of the first Mary in the PR's ?

You still with me, lol ?

[Keptin Thedark]

Thanks OC, Kiterunner,

So it would be the burial of the first Mary then.

It would have been a lot easier if they had just stuck with the Old Style Calendar you know, what's a few days here and there? The seasons have all gone to pot anyway!!:D

[KiteRunner]

Mary I baptised 29 Mar 1612
Mary I buried 29 Mar 1616
Mary II baptised 7 Jan 1616

That makes sense, yes, it would be the burial of the first Mary. Then you would have April 1616, May 1616 and so on through to December, then Jan 1616 the second Mary was born.

[Keptin Thedark]

thanks.......

[Olde Crone Holden]

Keptin

This is one of those things that is very easy to work out if the PR is in front of you, but full of potential misunderstanding if it isn't!

Yes, leave the dates alone and transcribe them exactly as found and let the researcher work it out for themself. I have seen one record that was corrected three times, making for great confusion and the belief that there were three sons baptised on exactly the same date, neatly a year apart.

OC

[Christine in Herts]

Lady Day celebrates the Annunciation - the moment of Jesus Conception. By arithmetic convention that makes it exactly nine months before Christmas Day. Therefore it's 25 March. The moment of his conception is the beginning of Anni Domini - the time when Jesus existed as a human, so the first day of the year had to be 25 March.

I'm not saying that this is helpful - just explaining the logic (having thought it through, myself).

Christine

[Guy]

I would recommend every genealogist to download the free and accurate calendar Calisto
Calisto - Calendar Program

Not only does this calendar graphically show the changed months it even provides regnal years required for many old documents.
Cheers
Guy

[Pamdidle]

Lady Day celebrates the Annunciation - the moment of Jesus Conception. By arithmetic convention that makes it exactly nine months before Christmas Day. Therefore it's 25 March. The moment of his conception is the beginning of Anni Domini - the time when Jesus existed as a human, so the first day of the year had to be 25 March

Ooo, l,ll remember that date, its my wedding anniversary. So if l'd got pregnant on my wedding day, theres a good chance l would have had a christmas day baby lol:D

[Merry Monty Montgomery]

Lady Day celebrates the Annunciation - the moment of Jesus Conception. By arithmetic convention that makes it exactly nine months before Christmas Day. Therefore it's 25 March. The moment of his conception is the beginning of Anni Domini - the time when Jesus existed as a human, so the first day of the year had to be 25 March.

I'm not saying that this is helpful - just explaining the logic (having thought it through, myself).

Christine

Oh, but I think it is extremely helpful! I always got confused about whether it was the 25th or 26th, but now it's obvious. And I already knew when Lady Day was (perhaps surprisingly because I used to work in banking!), but didn't realise it's significance.

I will forever get it right now. Thanks Christine!

[Christine in Herts]

Oh, I am glad that you find it helpful.

And Guy has turned up another useful link, of course!

Christine

[Hugo]

This is fascinating, and new to me as I have never read anything about the year starting in March.

Did it apply in Scotland and Ireland?

When was the changeover to starting in January? and why?

This is probably only of academic interest to me as my Scottish ancestry keeps hitting the Irish brick wall about 1800.

Hugo

[KiteRunner]

Scotland changed to the new-style calendar in 1600. Not sure when Ireland did.

[KiteRunner]

sorry, had to post that up so I could look at your questions again!

England and Wales changed over to the new calendar in September 1752 - there was a jump straight from 2nd Sep 1752 to 14th Sep 1752. The reason was just to fit in with everyone else and get the seasons back to normal, I think, because the old calendar didn't have leap years and the new one did (that makes anniversaries even more complicated!)

Ireland may have changed over in 1582 when Pope Gregory ordered the change in the first place?

[Olde Crone Holden]

However, the banks and other financial institutions kicked up a huge fuss about the loss of interest they would sustain because of the changeover and that is why the financial year still runs from 6th April to the 5th April following.

(25th March, plus 11 days)

OC

[Guy]

Lady Day also called Annunciation Day, (the annunciation of the Virgin Mary)

From about 1170 to 1 January 1752 the year started on 25 March (Lady Day), previous to this the New year started on various days including, 1st March, 25th March, 24th September, 25th December, amongst many others.

It was also one of the important quarter days of the year when servants were hired for the next year and payments became due. (It is still used as the start of the tax year in the UK but with the 11 days added)

Note servants were hired for a period of normally one-day short of the year. The reason behind this was to avoid the servant being able to claim residence in the parish due to working continuously over a year for an employer in the parish (one of the quirks of the poors law).

The other Quarter Days were

24 June, Midsummers Day, (the Feast of St. John the Baptist)

29 September, Michaelmas, (the Feast of St Michael the Archangel)

25 December, Christmas Day.
Cheers
Guy