Help!

[Little Nell]

My gt grandfather John Gray had 3 brothers, all of whom just disappear.
My father told me a story about how a set of brothers (but don't know whose) were all drowned in a fishing accident.

So when I found a William Gray drowned off Lowestoft who was the right age for one of the brothers I got all excited and Gwynne kindly send me news reports of the incident. I'd found him by matching up likely deaths at sea with rough birthyear.

But in the cold light of day, I am concerned that there was a William Grey living in Lowestoft in 1871 as a fisherman with wife and daughter. The news report says the William who drowned left a wife and grown up daughter, whereas my chap had several young daughters.

So now I am back to having 3 missing brothers - did they die in a drowning accident and if so, why can't I find any evidence?

William Gray born 1839, Hardley, Norfolk
- last sighting 1871 HO107/779/9 Folio: 6 Page 7

Robert Gray born 1843, Hardley
last sighting 1851 HO 107 1820 300 2
[not the Robert Gray who died 1855!]

Samuel Gray born 1846 Hardley
last sighting 1861 RG 9 1227 56 p.15

[Christine in Herts]

In that situation, you want one of those multiple name searches - like for a census!

Gale newspapers?

Christine

[Phoenix]

If the boat contains all their worldly wealth, then there's no will, as their cottage is rented.

If they drown in the North Sea (or further afield) then their corpses aren't washed ashore, so no death certificate (or more gruesomely, they are simply buried as unknowns)

Drowning was a recognised hazard of the job. Such deaths would only be newsworthy in the tiny provincial newspaper covering their area, or if it was a quiet day for news.

Even if we assume the story is true and they all drowned post 1871, it's still a needle in a haystack job.

All you can do is look on the bright side and hope more records come online. After all, you'd never have found that Higho on his pleasure trip in the old days, would you?

[Olde Crone Holden]

I wonder if Lowestoft Local Archives would have any record of this?

I do know that here in St Ives there is a list in the Lifeboat museum of fishermen drowned over the centuries and also in the fishermen's chapel.

Also, the local report you saw may have meant "He leaves one grown up UNMARRIED daughter" (in the way of a dependant).

OC

[Little Nell]

Phoenix and Olde Crone

Thank you for your comments. I know fishing was a hazardous profession (that's why gt grandfather's 8 sons all did something else for a living, most of them coming to London to be policemen).

If bodies aren't returned to shore, but presumed drowned, wouldn't the next of kin have had the deaths registered eventually?

[Little Nell]

William Gray's wife Sarah Ann appears as a widow in 1881. Her youngest daughter born 1877 has no father on birth cert. Next eldest was born 1872. But of course I don't know if William and Sarah were living together/apart or whether he'd died between 1872-77.

My gt grandfather John changed his occupation between Nov 1871 and Feb 1874. Up to 1871 he was a fisherman, and by 1874 he was a labourer. This info from his children's baptisms. Just wondering if I can try to pin down likely accident in first half of 1870s.

How does that work?
1871
William and John Gray are on census as on a fishing vessel in Yarmouth Harbour.
William's wife and 2 of their 3 daughters are living in Yarmouth. John's wife and children are living with John's mother in Limpenhoe, Norfolk.
No idea where Robert and Samuel, if still alive, were.

William's wife Sarah has a daughter in 1872 named Rose Sarah. I haven't found a birth registration for her.


Feb 1874
John Gray, in Limpenhoe, is a labourer.

1877
Sarah Gray gives birth to last daughter in Row 80, Yarmouth. No father named on cert.

1881
Sarah appears as a widow on census. She is living in Great Ryburgh, Norfolk with her father.

[Little Nell]

I suppose i could order Rose/a's birth cert to see if there's a father named on that!

[Merry Monty Montgomery]

If bodies aren't returned to shore, but presumed drowned, wouldn't the next of kin have had the deaths registered eventually?

I've got a chap on my tree whose fishing smack went down with all hands in a storm in 1863. There's no death reg and the widow (only aged 21) had to make a special oath in court when his will was proved, because there was no body. I've never found a death reg.

[Little Nell]

Not really what I wanted to hear! Trouble is that William, Robert & Samuel Gray are all such blinking common names to start with!

I just wish I could prove/disprove the story, really.

I wonder if John's change of occupation was significant or just a financial decision? His wife had been an assistant schoolmistress and she was the one who was determined her sons weren't going to be fishermen as it was too dangerous.

[Anne in Carlisle]

Three of OH's g/gg grandfathers were lost at sea

I couldn't find them at all for years - there are no death certs when there is no body :(

In the end the lucky break came when I found a list of 'Lost Trawlers of Hull' and found them on it. Then we managed to get the newspaper stories of the right time. There was a massive storm in Dec 1894 and 15 trawlers were lost in one night

One thing we don't think about today is how long it took for any news to get through. The storm was in December but it was mid January before the waiting families lost all hope - they just had to wait to see if the boat came back.

Their names are in the newspapers but we found it very ironic that there were also lists of the names of those who subscribed to the relief fund - that list gradually took prominence over the list of the men who died.

Anne

PS Nell, just because he was a labourer in one year doesn't mean he didn't go back to fishing. The crew signed on fresh each time - not always the same crew together.

[Little Nell]

Anne

Thank you for your input. I guess I will have to search the Yarmouth newspapers when I get up to Norfolk again.

I know what you mean about fresh crew signing, but my gt grandfather is labourer in the 3 censuses after 1874 and in all his children's subsequent baptisms. Of course he may have been fishing in between labouring, which was also piecemeal work.

[Janet in Yorkshire]

In the burial registers for the East Yorks coastal villages there are fairly frequent burials of "unknown man/stranger washed up on beach".
I've never had need to investigate any of these, but presumably if there were inquests and the subsequent issue of death certs, these would take place in the area where the body was discovered, rather than in the man's home district, which could have been anywhere. Could/would a death cert be issued for an unidentified person?
There have also been incidents of local people meeting the same fate, but they have been named in the burial register and a cert issued - my friend has one, cause of death "drowning after boat capsized."

Jay

[Merry Monty Montgomery]

Could/would a death cert be issued for an unidentified person?

I just did a couple of completely random search on deaths (the full pages on Ancestry)

1850 Q4 almost 200 "Unknown" deaths. About ¾ male, rest female, three unknown sex.

1879 Q3 about the same total, about the same breakdown male to female (four unknown sex) but now there are ages, there are a lot more females aged 0 than males aged 0. There are only about six females who are adult, whereas there are dozens of adult men.

[Christine in Herts]

There are such burials in the PRs of the "Three Towns" as recorded on the Devon FHS CD.

Christine

[Little Nell]

None of which helps me find my 3, but interesting reading, nonetheless.

[Janet in Yorkshire]

I just did a couple of completely random search on deaths (the full pages on Ancestry)

1850 Q4 almost 200 "Unknown" deaths. About ¾ male, rest female, three unknown sex.

1879 Q3 about the same total, about the same breakdown male to female (four unknown sex) but now there are ages, there are a lot more females aged 0 than males aged 0. There are only about six females who are adult, whereas there are dozens of adult men.

Thanks for following that up Merry - I suspected that certs would possibly be issued.
I remember being struck by the frequency at which these burials happened and thinking about limited newspaper circulations, illiteracy rates and all those families never actually knowing what had happened to their loved one.

Jay