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Merry Monty Montgomery
16-06-08, 10:08
Not only is it Scottish, but it's also Smith! lol

I am trying to establish if this man's mother was called Jane Douglas.

In the Scots 1891 census there is David Beatson Smith aged 28 with his wife and child.
David is said to have been born in Pittenweem, Fifeshire in 1863.


In the Scots 1881 census David is said to have been born in 1863 in Pittenween, Fifeshire and the census record shows him to be the son of the head, Thomas Smith. No mother.

I have no idea if the middle name really is Beatson, or some other spelling.

On my CD version of the 1881 Scottish census Thomas Smith is recorded as unmarried, but I'm hoping he was a widower, as David was listed as his son!

I can't find them in 1871 in Scotland or in England.

If his mother isn't Jane Douglas, then I want nothing more to do with him!! lol This is part of an elimination process :)

Olde Crone Holden
16-06-08, 10:12
Merry

The Scots had an annoying habit of calling themselves unmarried when they were really widow or widower.

Welcome to the world of Scottish Ancestry mistranscriptions, by the way, pmsl. I'll off and have a quick look.

OC

Merry Monty Montgomery
16-06-08, 10:13
Luckily, it's not my tree! lol

Merry Monty Montgomery
16-06-08, 10:14
Is it possible to see if there's any sign of a marriage between a Thomas Smith and a Jane Douglas before about 1861, even if it turns out David is a read herring??

Raven
16-06-08, 10:17
Hi Merry...

canny find a birth for him in Fife

Merry Monty Montgomery
16-06-08, 10:21
Hi Merry...

canny find a birth for him in Fife


:( Beamed up from space?? lol

Olde Crone Holden
16-06-08, 10:25
No marriage coming up for Thomas Smith and Jane, on Scotlands People - well, not in Fife, anyway.

David's marriage cert would give the name of his mother.

OC

Raven
16-06-08, 10:26
checked for a marriage between 1855 and 1861 canny see anything...also tried OPRs between 1850 and 1855..nothing sorry..

Merry Monty Montgomery
16-06-08, 10:37
Thanks for looking!

Do you want to hear the next part? (or rather, the bit from before David??!)

Scottish 1881 census Mary Smith born England. She is 24 and a visitor.

In 1882 she married Donald Biggs and it is from the marriage cert (I've not seen it) that her parents are given as Thomas Smith, journeyman tailor and Jane Douglas.

I have not found her in 1891 or 1901 yet, but I understand it just says Englad for her place of birth on those too (they lived in Scotland).

I've been looking at various Thomas Smith tailors in 1861 and 1871 in England and Scotland looking for ones with daus called Mary b abt 1857ish. I've not found any yet!!

I looked at the David/Thomas scenario because Thomas was a tailor and he was born in England, so I imagined they were possibly the right family.

Can anyone think of anything else to help find out more about Mary? My contact says Mary died in 1913, but I don't know if she has the death cert - that would potentially have her mum on it too, wouldn't it??

Macbev
16-06-08, 10:41
1863;David Smith;Dairsie/Fife
1864;David Smith;Kingsbarns/Fife

Other David Smiths born this timeframe Fife have middle names Brodie, Forbes and Hay

One on the IGI...wrong mum

Macbev
16-06-08, 10:44
If Jane Douglas was the Scottish connection look for her also as Jean, Jeannie, Janet (I've also has a Jessie pop up)

Merry Monty Montgomery
16-06-08, 10:45
Thanks for looking Bev.

David "Beatson" Smith probably married an Agnes around 1885/888ish. Is there any way of prodding his middle name from the indexes?

I have used SP before, but I don't know what I'm doing with it, so feel like I have one hand tied behind my back lol

Raven
16-06-08, 10:46
have her death cert... father Thomas Smith (tailor)
mother Jane Douglas (deceased)
she died in Dennistoun Glasgow aged 54. date of death 16 Sept 1913
wife of Donald Biggs, plumber

Merry Monty Montgomery
16-06-08, 10:47
If Jane Douglas was the Scottish connection look for her also as Jean, Jeannie, Janet (I've also has a Jessie pop up)

As I've looked for marriages of Thomas Smith to X Douglas in England/Wales, I'm guessing she is the Scottish connection and they married there, but no luck with finding anything.

I also tried doing a parent search for Scotland on the IGI, but that didn't throw up any Scottish children. (beginning to wonder if they were real people! lol)

Merry Monty Montgomery
16-06-08, 10:58
Thank you Raven. Does that imply that Thomas Smith was alive, if there's only dec'd by Jane's name?

Is it suspicious that there doesn't seem to be a marriage anywhere, or are the scotttish ones only as complete as whatever?

Rachel Scand
16-06-08, 11:01
No marriage coming up for Thomas Smith and Jane, on Scotlands People - well, not in Fife, anyway.

David's marriage cert would give the name of his mother.

OC

Maybe it was not a Church of Scotland marriage .... thankfully my branch didn't stay there forever .... using Scotlandspeople was ghastly and not something I want to repeat even though my brick wall remains intact

Merry Monty Montgomery
16-06-08, 11:02
Maybe it was not a Church of Scotland marriage ....



Hi Rachel, I'm sorry your wall didn't fall.

Erm.....what does that mean about Church of Scotland???

Raven
16-06-08, 11:05
the OPR's are for the Established Church ie.. The Church of Scotland... non conformist birth marriages and deaths will be held in the National Archives of Scotland

sorry Merry have just noticed that Thomas is Deceased as well..lol... went and double checked...

Rachel Scand
16-06-08, 11:06
If Jane Douglas was the Scottish connection look for her also as Jean, Jeannie, Janet (I've also has a Jessie pop up)


and Jain ....

One of mine is Jane, Jean or Jain ... I also have a Jessie (sibling of Jane) and read somewhere recently that this can be another variation of Janet :eek:

KiteRunner
16-06-08, 11:07
Merry, for marriages before the start of Civil Registration, Scotland's People has the "OPR" entries, which are Church of Scotland marriages, but marriages of people of other denominations are not all included, and some of them have to be looked up at the Scottish National Archives. Also, there were irregular-type marriages where the couple basically just decided to be married and didn't have an actual ceremony, and not all those are recorded at all.

Rachel Scand
16-06-08, 11:08
non conformist birth marriages and deaths will be held in the National Archives of Scotland

:( if you're lucky ....

Raven
16-06-08, 11:12
yep if you are lucky..lol

KiteRunner
16-06-08, 11:15
Thanks for looking Bev.

David "Beatson" Smith probably married an Agnes around 1885/888ish. Is there any way of prodding his middle name from the indexes?

I have used SP before, but I don't know what I'm doing with it, so feel like I have one hand tied behind my back lol


If you do a search for David B Smith marrying Agnes in that date range (with a tick for "return all forenames that begin with these characters"), then if it found a match and you click to view the match it would tell you his full middle name, but there are no matches 1883-1890. Nor for a David B Smith marrying anybody whose name began with an A, nor marrying anybody at all.

There are 7 David Smiths marrying an Agnes in that date range, so you could do that search and see if any of them has a middle name that looks similar.

Merry Monty Montgomery
16-06-08, 11:18
Oooh, it's complicated, isn't it!! I'm not very good at learning new stuff.....I have been awake since 4am :(

That Thomas Smith the "unmarried" tailor in 1881........I keep coming back to him!

By 1891 he has a "new" wife, Christina, and a dau named Helen D Smith b abt 1882/3 in Edinburgh.

By 1901 Christina and Helen are still there, but Thomas has died.

I don't know where I'm going with this, because I'm not sure what can be discovered. Something in my bones says this is the right Thomas.

is there any way to do anything with the indexes for the marriage of Thomas' son, David? (married Agnes abt 1887/8) to establish anything on his mother, or does it mean a cert job or what??!

Raven
16-06-08, 11:20
There is a marriage for a David B Smith marrying an Agnes Thomson in Edinburgh..

David's father is a Thomas Smith (tailor) mother is Christian Smith (mmn Gunn)

date of marriage 31 July 1885

Merry if you want any of these images let me know..:) :)

Merry Monty Montgomery
16-06-08, 11:20
Sorry Kite, we crossed.....am reading your post now!

Merry Monty Montgomery
16-06-08, 11:21
There is a marriage for a David B Smith marrying an Agnes Thomson in Edinburgh..

David's father is a Thomas Smith (tailor) mother is Christian Smith (mmn Gunn)

date of marriage 31 July 1885

Ok, so unless Thomas was married more than once, this eliminates him (*wonder's where Christina was in 1881?*).

I am just going to see if I can pick up when Thomas married Miss Gunn..........

(I hope no one is spending any money on this??? :()

Raven
16-06-08, 11:27
Marriage for Thomas Smith(widower) and Christian Sadler nee Gunn (widow)

date of marriage 25 Dec 1882

Thomas occupation: Journeyman Tailor.
Father: James Smith - Butcher (deceased)
Mother: Jane Smith (nee Jamieson) deceased

Christian occupation: seemstress
Father: Daniel Gunn - Cooper (deceased)
Mother: Helen Gunn (nee Douglas) deceased.

Merry Monty Montgomery
16-06-08, 11:32
So they married 20 years after the birth of their son??!!! lolol

Hmmmmm

Mother of Mrs Christina Smith - Helen Gunn nee Douglas.

OMG - I need a brandy or something! Could this be Thomas's second connection to the Douglas family??

Olde Crone Holden
16-06-08, 11:36
Merry

I wouldn't put too much credence on Christian being his REAL mother! She may just have been his very nice stepmother.

OC

Macbev
16-06-08, 11:38
Have looked at all Smith/Douglas SR marriages between 1855-1863..none have Thomas or Jane etc as forenames

Raven
16-06-08, 11:38
Christina Gunn married Samuel Sadler. Cannongate, Edinburgh 1866.

Samuel Sadler died Leith North, Edinburgh 1867

Macbev
16-06-08, 11:39
Merry

I wouldn't put too much credence on Christian being his REAL mother! She may just have been his very nice stepmother.

OC

Indeed...my Walter Hooks had four wives, and it was the third wife whose name was passed on to the children of her stepson.

Merry Monty Montgomery
16-06-08, 11:43
Merry

I wouldn't put too much credence on Christian being his REAL mother! She may just have been his very nice stepmother.

OC

Oh yes, silly me!!

I wonder if he was born David Douglas, illegitimate son of Jane Douglas who also had Mary in 1858 in England and never married Thomas Smith??!!!

Oooh, like this one:

DAVID DOUGLAS
Birth: 02 OCT 1863 Strathmiglo, Fife, Scotland
Parents:
Mother: JANE DOUGLAS
Messages:
Extracted birth or christening record for the locality listed in the record

Where is Strathmiglo compared with Pittenweem, Fifeshire??

*clutches straws*

There's a nurse child in London in 1861 called Mary Jane Douglas aged 3! lol And a 15 year old Mary Jane Douglas b England on the Scottish 1871.

Merry Monty Montgomery
16-06-08, 11:45
Of course I've ignored the missing middle name for David!

Macbev
16-06-08, 11:49
Oh gawd, Merry, don't go there...shades of my David Shaw/Mitchell/McKinlay. She wasnae married when she had David....registered as SHAW....an anotation a bit later that Mitchell was the father...then she married Mckinlay.

Was a nightmare sorting it out cos the birth reg disagreed with census 1881 which disagreed with census 1891

Merry Monty Montgomery
16-06-08, 11:50
*pokes fingers in ears*

Raven
16-06-08, 11:50
Where is Strathmiglo compared with Pittenweem, Fifeshire??

they are about 30 miles apart, Merry.. Strathmilgo is near Cupar and Pittenween is near Anstruther..

Rachel Scand
16-06-08, 11:51
S'cuse my butting in .... I wonder if I could pick the brains of Raven, Beverly and OC while you're there ?

The marriage, which may throw light on the parents of my relatives could not be found by the NAS ... so the records are probably lost and gone forever, although they did add that maybe they could be found locally.

At that point I ran out of steam ... but how or where could I search 'locally' ? any ideas (I'm no where near Scotland).

According to the birth certs of 2 of the children, the marriage took place at Wishaw House, Lanarkshire

Merry Monty Montgomery
16-06-08, 11:51
Where is Strathmiglo compared with Pittenweem, Fifeshire??

they are about 30 miles apart, Merry..

I think I may have just dropped my clutched straw!! lol

Olde Crone Holden
16-06-08, 11:57
*picks straw up, wipes on skirt, hands back to Merry*

Someone who couldn't give the name of his real mother can hardly be expected to know exactly where he was born.

OC

Raven
16-06-08, 12:03
Rachel,,

wonder if there might be something at the Mitchell Library in Glasgow... There is a Scottish site that has some of their moderators who do trips to the different principal places where records are kept...you might try them I suppose...

Scotlands Family Tree (http://scotfamtree.11.forumer.com/)

Macbev
16-06-08, 12:05
My brains aren't very worth picking, Rachel :o I gather you've looked on Scotland's People? Wishaw House rings a bell for some reason ....Raven probably has a better idea.

Merry Monty Montgomery
16-06-08, 12:10
Can anyone give me advice on what my contact could try next?

She has the marriage cert (1882) and Raven has kindly provided the death details (1913), both of which give the same parental details.

Any ideas??

JBee
16-06-08, 12:24
Ok to throw my tuppence in too.

Couldn't find OH grandparent's marriage in 1916 on Scotlandspeople though the date and place were on their first child's birth certificate.

Contacted GRO Scotland who then produced it for me. - so was registered but just hadn't made it to scotlandspeople.

I do have images that contradict known facts - grandson registering father's death put different name down as grandfather, everything else right occup etc.

Granddaughter registering grandmother's death put different maiden name down which really confused me. Then found grandmother was in 1891 and 1901 census as married to another (different name entirely) but no marriage found - well not to him but another name appeared on death certificate which I haven't found info on yet.

I've also got an Edward Smith who was widowed in 1861 with children John born England:confused:, Mary and Ann born Edinburgh not too common huh!!. Can't find Edward after 1871 census nor the children.

Rachel Scand
16-06-08, 12:27
My brains aren't very worth picking, Rachel :o I gather you've looked on Scotland's People? Wishaw House rings a bell for some reason ....Raven probably has a better idea.

Thanks Beverly ... I did it to death before I realised that Wishaw House would not have been part of the established church :(

Good to know that it wasn't because I was getting the 'search' wrong :D

Rachel Scand
16-06-08, 12:31
Rachel,,

wonder if there might be something at the Mitchell Library in Glasgow... There is a Scottish site that has some of their moderators who do trips to the different principal places where records are kept...you might try them I suppose...

Scotlands Family Tree (http://scotfamtree.11.forumer.com/)


Thanks for that Raven ... I did try contacting the Mitchell Library at some point, but can't even remember if they replied ....

Will give it another go :)

Merry Monty Montgomery
16-06-08, 12:39
Can anyone give me advice on what my contact could try next?

She has the marriage cert (1882) and Raven has kindly provided the death details (1913), both of which give the same parental details.

Any ideas??

Any at all?

KiteRunner
16-06-08, 12:47
Sorry, Merry, what is the 1882 marriage? And what are the details from it? I know Raven found an 1885 one, though I don't understand why Scotland's People wouldn't come up with that one for me!

KiteRunner
16-06-08, 12:54
Just in case I don't get back on here for a little while, some general advice:

If the problem is that she is trying to trace a family back but is missing a marriage, I've managed to get back past a few of those by picking out likely people to be the parents of the couple whose marriage I can't find (if you look at the names of the couple's first few children, it may give a clue as to the grandparents' names) and look for wills, inventories etc on Scotland's People, then cross my fingers and pay up for copies and hope they mention the family!

Also have a look at Scotsfind to see if there's anything on there that might help:
ScotsFind Scottish Genealogy (http://www.scotsfind.org/)

Macbev
16-06-08, 13:10
I see there is a return in SP Wills & Testamentsl for a Thomas Brown Jackson Smith, 08/09/1890; tailor, Ceres; d. 27/01/1890, intestate (Cupar Sheriff court).....any use?

Macbev
16-06-08, 13:17
Janet Douglas;29/04/1879;Pittenweem;d.05/04/1879 at Pittenweem, testate (Cupar sheriff's Court)..11 pages of will can be viewed for 5 pounds

Merry Monty Montgomery
16-06-08, 13:27
Sorry, I had to go away for a bit!


If the problem is that she is trying to trace a family back but is missing a marriage,

Right, the problem is that she cannot trace Mary Smith with her parents in 1861 and 1871 in either Scotland or England. Not helped by the fact Mary could have been born anywhere in England due to the fact she can only be found on Scottish censuses.

We know the supposed names of her parents, but cannot find a marriage for them in England or Scotland.


Sorry, Merry, what is the 1882 marriage?

The 1882 marriage is between Mary Smith and Donald Biggs and is where my contact first discovered the names of Mary's parents. (the year is what my contact told me.....I haven't looked for the marriage)

Raven
16-06-08, 13:45
marriage for Donald Biggs and Mary Smith

Donald... age 28... batchelor... plumber.
father: John Biggs, butler(deceased)
Mother: Joanna Biggs nee Grant.. deceased.

Mary age 23 spinster, domestic Servant.
father Thomas Smith tailor..
mother Jane Smith deceased

date of Marriage 10 Feb 1882
place of marriage.. 90 Gloucester St, Glasgow..

Merry Monty Montgomery
16-06-08, 13:47
mother Jane Smith deceased

No nee Douglas mentioned?????????

Merry Monty Montgomery
16-06-08, 13:49
*Tuts*

If my contact had the mmn from the 1913 death cert and this Jane had been dead so long no one could remember her name in 1882, then that bloomin' Thomas Smith with no wife in 1881 (father of David who I had at the start of this thread) begins to look more likely again :(

If only I could find that Thomas with David in 1871. :(:(

Raven
16-06-08, 14:01
oops sorry Merry it was Douglas... was being hurried by my son..to give him a lift to work..

Merry Monty Montgomery
16-06-08, 14:03
lolol!! I keep dropping my straws!

Thanks anyway, Raven, fo all you've looked up for me :)

Raven
16-06-08, 14:07
no probs Merry... :) :)

Uncle John
16-06-08, 14:35
The marriage, which may throw light on the parents of my relatives could not be found by the NAS ... so the records are probably lost and gone forever, although they did add that maybe they could be found locally.

At that point I ran out of steam ... but how or where could I search 'locally' ? any ideas (I'm no where near Scotland).

According to the birth certs of 2 of the children, the marriage took place at Wishaw House, Lanarkshire

I have something very similar. Parents married in the Church of Scotland in 1826 (I have the OPR image). They then had 10 children over the next 20 years, for which there is no OPR record nor anything at NAS for the only likely "dissenting" church in Airdrie. I'm certain the children would all have been baptised - they were a very religious family in which some of the children became or married ministers. Fortunately all the children appear in censuses from 1841 onwards and the survivors are mentioned in their father's will.

Rachel Scand
16-06-08, 15:28
Uncle John

I have the birth certs (+ one death) for 7 of the 10 children, but the first 3 are not even on Scotlandspeople's OPRs ...
Is that usual, do you think ? is there anywhere else I might find these three ?

The first intrigues, because she has a second name (Stuart) and this does not occur anywhere else in the family and there's always been a question about her county of birth .... Lanark or Perth

Merry Monty Montgomery
16-06-08, 15:29
Can anyone give me advice on what my contact could try next?

She has the marriage cert (1882) and Raven has kindly provided the death details (1913), both of which give the same parental details.

Any ideas??

Any ideas at all???

Rachel Scand
16-06-08, 16:33
Sorry to keep butting in Merry :o


Wishaw House rings a bell for some reason

Lord Belhaven (various ones, with surname Hamilton) owned it ... probably still do unless it's been demolished

Chopin wuz there in 1848 or 9 (briefly)

JBee
16-06-08, 17:38
There's also a chance that the OPR's may have been damaged.

I've found various siblings in Kirriemuir and when I looked for another which was direct line on the LDS film there were some pages completely blank or just the odd word here or there and an occasional entry I could read.

Only a limited number of pages were affected and it was really annoying to see the next page to one I couldn't read absolutely perfect.

KiteRunner
16-06-08, 17:47
Was my suggestion no help? Of looking for wills / inventories etc that could be connected with their families, and looking at Scotsfind to see if there is anything useful on there?

For more specific suggestions, I'd need to read right through this thread again and understand it all, but that could be difficult with the kids about!

KiteRunner
16-06-08, 19:25
okay, having read it all, my suggestions would be: look at the witnesses on mary smith's marriage cert; get thomas smith's death cert as that should give detailsof both his wives, and get that janet douglas will from pittenweem 1879.

Merry Monty Montgomery
16-06-08, 19:38
Thanks Kite, I will suggest to contact those items, particularly Thomas' death record. (I didn't realise it would have "all" wives included!)

Raven
16-06-08, 19:41
Merry do you want the images I have from Scotlands People??

Merry Monty Montgomery
16-06-08, 19:45
Now you know you are very naughty to be getting those for me, but as you have them, then yes please!!

I'll pm you in a few minutes, but I can smell burning, so i need to go to the kitchen first :eek:

Raven
16-06-08, 20:30
Merry email has been sent..

I also found Thomas' Death.... seems he was married to a Mary Bowman or Brennan before his marriage to Christian Gunn/Sadler