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Lensgirl
10-06-08, 19:05
Hi

I have the marriage of my 4x great grandparents marrying in a C of E church. Would a Catholic have been able to marry there? I have been trying to find out a little bit more about my Irish ancestors (an Irish baptism has been found on LDS) and now have this marriage taken place in a C of E church. Do you think its likely they werent Catholics? (the groom has the Irish parents, the brides parents by the looks of it were C of E by where they married). The only reason i presumed they were catholics is that my nan is. Niether side of the family were witnesses

Many thanks

Margaret in Burton
10-06-08, 19:15
When was this?

I don't know when it stopped but everyone had to marry in a C of E church at one time, excepting Jews and Quakers I believe.

I'm sure someone will tell you when this law changed.

jean
10-06-08, 19:16
I only know that my friends gt grandparents married in Ireland, she was catholic and he protestant, and they were not allowed to marry in either church and had to be married in the porch of the local church. Don't know if that helps:confused:

Lensgirl
10-06-08, 19:37
I only know that my friends gt grandparents married in Ireland, she was catholic and he protestant, and they were not allowed to marry in either church and had to be married in the porch of the local church. Don't know if that helps:confused:

oh my goodness!!:eek: the marriage was in 1895, the Irish birth in 1868, although doesnt list the church but i thought that RC records were only available through the church?

Olde Crone Holden
10-06-08, 20:27
Your 4 x GGPs married in 1895???

Mine married mid 1700s.....

*reaches for zimmer and staggers slowly off thread*

OC

Lensgirl
10-06-08, 21:58
Your 4 x GGPs married in 1895???

Mine married mid 1700s.....

*reaches for zimmer and staggers slowly off thread*

OC

:D ive just taken stock and they are actually my 2x great grandparents, although i do have a set of 4x great grandparents that married in the 1850's

Olde Crone Holden
10-06-08, 22:00
Phew!

*chucks zimmer out of window*

OC

Olde Crone Holden
10-06-08, 22:03
Something a bit more helpful...in mixed faith marriages, the couple often decide to raise the boys as Catholics and the girls as protestant, or vice versa. Often the RC partner "wins" and all the children are brought up in the faith.

You don't say where this marriage took place. A catholic who marries out of his faith is considered by the RC church not to be married anyway.

They may have married in both churches of course.

OC

Harrys mum
10-06-08, 22:46
Are we talking about Rep of Ireland here? I have a stack of Irish family who were not Catholic, from the north.

My Kerry lot were all Catholic though.

Not sure about C of E, but with mixed marriages in the Catholic church, they used to perform them if the priest agreed, but not usually in front of the altar.

I have quite a few family from Lancashire who I have no idea about. Some books have them as Catholic, some C of E, and I know one group were Quakers, but so far the marriages were in C of E.

I take it the marriage was in England? I know you can get Catholic records in Ireland, so might be worth a try to get the baptism record.

Little Nell
11-06-08, 00:32
What does the wording on the cert say? Does it say married by the "rite and ceremonies of the Established church?"

I had a Catholic friend who married a C of E chap. They married in the C of E church (which if you live in the parish you have a right to do, regardless of your faith) but she had two priests from the Catholic church who performed a blessing after the marriage ceremony.

dicole
11-06-08, 05:09
I have two interesting oddities in marriages, none of which help you really, but may be they illustrated the some things just have no explanation to our modern thinking.

1. A man in our family remarried (to a woman less than half his age). They married in the chapel of an RC school, what makes this so strange is his son was a CofE minister, who officiated at many family events.

2. Another part of the family claims their ancestor changed his name from READ to GURREN because it sounded "more Irish", supposing that they lived in an Irish enclave in Sydney. However, the man in question was right to use his mothers name (GURREN) as it appears his parents never married. One assumes his new wife's family was catholic, but they married in the home of the CofE minister, and some of their children were buried in the RC cemetery, so I guess they were raised as catholic. Were they more concerned with religion than illegitimacy ?

Then there are those Jewish people whose children are buried in the RC cemetery, I don't know where or when or why, the change occurred. It can be so confusing




Diane

Harrys mum
11-06-08, 05:22
OOOOHH!!!!!!!!!!
What about the Jewish buried in the RC cemetery????????????????


I'm trying to work one out at the moment.


Sorry for hijacking the thread.

dicole
11-06-08, 06:58
Hi Libby

The children of the Jewish couple were adults when they passed away, so I assume they chose their own religion when they were old enough. Still very strange ....

Diane

Harrys mum
11-06-08, 07:14
Thanks Diane....

Mine was a 16 year old Jewish girl (wealthy parents, so didn't have to marry) marrying a Catholic in Sydney in 1897. She died the following year and is buried in Rookwood in the RC section after a RC funeral. Love to find the story.

Janet
11-06-08, 10:52
Back in 1895 in Uk (and ireland was still part of UK at that point) there would have been very strict guidlines as to how and when and why you were getting married within RC faith if one partner was Cof E. The C of E partner would have been asked to agree to any children being brought up in the Catholic faith. There would have been no "Nuptial Mass", just an ordinary quick service just to show how much Rome frowned upon this happening!!Readily agreed to at marriage, this bringing up of children within the Catholic faith was often flouted by the couple when they eventually had children. I know it was with my Great Grandparents and as already said when flouted, then boys were often brought up with religion of father and girls brought up with religion of the mother. Not bringing up the children in RC faith, thereby breaking marriage vow. could also have been cited later on as a cause for annullment!! So many subtle ways of RC getting out of marriage without a divorce!!!

Janet

Lensgirl
11-06-08, 11:35
The marriage was in St Mary's church in Liverpool. It was performed after Banns, although for some reason the father is down as Peter rather than Patrick, not sure why though. As the births of their children are late, i havent been able to find any baptisms via LDS or actually for any of them other than this Irish baptism of the eldest child. Although that doesnt say anything about a church, just Wicklow

Janet
11-06-08, 12:26
Robyne

Sorry, I have just realised you have got your folk other way around, a Catholic getting married in Cof E! Right, Cof E female more likely to get her way in marriage and would want it to be where she wanted it in Cof E Church! Groom would have agreed, as he was probably not bothered at that point, but when children are born he is torn with guilt! Now wants them baptised RC even if not bringing them up RC but he can't have them baptised in RC Church in Liverpool because he would have to produce his Marriage Cert for proof of marriage in Catholic Church, and that he was bringing them up as Catholics. However, he could hop back to Ireland and have them baptised there as Catholics, possibly no questions aked.

Father down as Peter and not Patrick! Well, Liverpool was very keen on its Orange Marches back in 1895 and could be very anti Catholic back then. It did mirror the Catholic V Protestant in mainly the Northern part of Ireland, though over Ireland generally you always had this antagonism between the two religions, although of recent years has been much more in the North than the South. If he was marrying into a very fiercely C of E family then Peter is a much more English sounding name than a Patrick and remember that Patrick could be translated to "Paddy" and very obviously Irish Catholic and sounding inferior!! If you can think back to what the term Paddy meant it was not a term of endearment in those days!

Neither side being witnesses would suggest possible hostility on both sides, which I would have expected at that time in Liverpool. Much bigotry on both sides for mixed marriages.

Janet

Lensgirl
11-06-08, 13:32
ooh its like Romeo and Juliet!! although not quite as glamourous!!!

Janet
11-06-08, 14:05
Yes, you have got it in one. In fact there is a series of books written on this very subject by Joan Lingard, but for the life of me I cannot remember the titles of the books and I was a school librarian once upon a time promoting these books as a must read for tolerance! They were ostensibly children's books but I enjoyed them as an adult. Gave you a lot of understanding on this Catholic/Protestant Romeo and Juliet stuff in Ireland. Just remembered one of the books was called "Twelth Day of July"!

Janet

Olde Crone Holden
11-06-08, 16:48
I believe that the Irish name Padraig, pronounced Patrick, translates into English as Peter (both words mean "a rock" in their own language).

As Janet says, lots of Patricks became Peter, out of expediency when living in England.

OC

Janet
11-06-08, 18:07
OC

Padraig does indeed translate to Patrick as Padraig is the gaelic for Patrick, but I was not so sure about Padraig/Patrick translating to Peter in English. Peter does mean "Rock" and is part of a latin derivation from Petrus/Petroc and from the New Testament, "Thou art Peter and upon this rock I will build my church" etc.

Peter is not as popular a name in Ireland for some reason, and I have to say I was not sure of the Gaelic name for Peter, but I did not think it was Padraig.

Having just written above, Phadraig is one name I have found for Peter but on a website for Irish names I have found that Peter is Peadar in Gaelic, and the meaning is aramaic for "rock", the name given to St. Simon by Christ, so although the use of Peter as a non gaelic substitute for Patrick was supposed to be common, I am not totally convinced. I am more inclined to the theory that Peter sounded Catholic, but also sounded English, and therefore more acceptable than Patrick when coming to a country like England.

http://www.ireland-information.com/heraldichall/irishboysnames.htm

Janet

Olde Crone Holden
11-06-08, 21:13
That's interesting Janet.

Another Gaelic form, used as a very early English name, was Peder, or Pederic.

I think you can see how all the versions of this name derive from a common Gaelic root - Pederic to Phadraig in Irish Gaelic and both back to their own colloquial versions of Peter.

Of course, those who changed their names from Patrick to Peter probably werent aware of the gaelic root word, but I wonder if they just made the translation when made aware that the English Saint Peter was the Irish Saint Patrick!

OC

Janet
11-06-08, 21:37
Oc

It's like all these discussions on here, when you start looking at something, you think you know about, up pops some more information that sets you thinking on another track, and I was quite surprised at what came up when I started hunting for Padraig and Peter, and yes I do not think our forebears were thinking about the implications gaelicwise when they changed their names like that from Patrick to Peter or other names. Looking at all my Irish names, and I have several hundred only 3 are Peter and my OH has no Peter at all in his Irish background.

Janet

Olde Crone Holden
11-06-08, 21:46
Janet

I have been desperately trying to think of another common Irish name which is often "translated" into English...but I can't!!

I am not au fait with Irish Catholic Saints, but think I remember that Saint Peter took Christianity to Ireland in the 5th(?) century, which would make Peter an Irish name, not an English name (if you see what I mean!).

I agree with you, you think you know something but on checking it, other avenues open up and you finish up miles from where you started, seeing things from a completely different angle.

OC

Harrys mum
11-06-08, 22:03
It could be something as simple as wanting the same first initial while not sounding too Irish.

Saves relearning your signature. I have yet to find an Irish rellie who could not write. Mine were poor farmers, but maybe education was more available where they came from???

JBee
11-06-08, 22:05
Looking at RC baptisms today - I came across an entry for a couples child - not the family I was looking up!!!!

it said that the child was baptised but not christened due to their not being able to find good godparents!!! - (can't remember exact wording) but was surprised at the differential between baptism and christening!!!

Olde Crone Holden
11-06-08, 22:10
JBee

I think we had a long thread about this once before and decided that baptism dedicates a child's soul to God,(spiritual) whereas a christening takes the child into the body of the church (temporal). God parents are needed for the temporal bit!

I think it is possibly only the RC church which now makes such a fine distinction.

OC

Harrys mum
11-06-08, 22:18
The Catholic church in Australia certainly doesn't take that stand......it could be just a local priest doing his own thing.

When a child is baptised, any confirmed catholic can be Godparents, even the child's own parents.

When an adult is baptised they have sponsers (someone who has helped them through the process) as they are old enough to look after their own spiritual life.

Any person who has been baptised into another Christian denomination (C of E, Lutheran, Uniting, etc) is never "rebaptised", but is accepted into the church as a member.
We believe in "one baptism for the removal of sins" as said in the Creed.
Even a lay person can baptise a person in an emergency.
I well remember learning in school that children who were not baptised could not enter Heaven (a teaching long since trashed). As quite a few of our friends were not of any religion, all of us Catholic kids would grab our friends and baptise them on a regular basis.
Brings back great memories.

Hope that helps.

Olde Crone Holden
11-06-08, 22:47
Libby

It wasn't just the RC church that believed an unbaptised child could not enter heaven.

My great aunt adored me and my brother and would happily have died for us. But she was a very religious woman and it bothered her that we had not been baptised. She told me that I would go to Hell.

My parents were furious with her for upsetting me but she would NOT back down - I can remember her shaking and weeping and saying "But it's true! It's true!"

OC

Janet
11-06-08, 23:14
OC

St Patrick was a Roman Britain born Christian Missionary who at 16 was captured by Irish raiders and taken as a slave to Ireland somewhere around second half of the 5th century. He is credited as THE saint for Ireland. Of course there are many others, but he is the Patron Saint for Ireland and commemorated and venerated all over the world every 17th March.There are many legends about him, such as getting rid of snakes in Ireland and you never see a snake in Ireland, and using the clover leaf to describe the Trinity. However, little is really known about him and most of what you read is not proven. I have walked up his mountain of Croagh Patrick, where he is supposed to have trhrown all the snakes into the water below. It is the most wonderful walk, if hard on the old knees, no I do not mean walking up on your knees, but the last half mile or so is scree and its murderous!

Libby

The Irish were well educated, in fact they had schools for the masses long before England. I have written about this before. My lot were educated by the Christian Brothers from about 1830 as were many Irish people. Late 1700's and early 1800's they had the hedge schools and you can google hedge schools to find out more. My lot were only bakers, blacksmiths and farm labourers but their style of writing was unbelievable. I have seen an example of one of them in an Irish newspaper, a 19 year old apprentice baker writing in the vein of James Joyce. Ireland is the country of song, ballad and storytelling and they have many authors of which they can be proud.

The RC church everywhere today is a very different church to yesteryear, but sadly things did go on back in the late 1800's early 1900's that would never happen today. But that is the same about life in general.

Janet

Olde Crone Holden
11-06-08, 23:17
Janet

As I said before, I think I know something, then look it up and find I don't, lol!

After I posted about St Peter I thought to myself "or was it St Patrick?"

I'm going to bed!

OC