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  • Family Crests/ Coats of Arms

    I am looking for some help with my family crest/coat of arms. I have found 2 different ones. Is there anyway I can tell which one would be mine? Thomas is my last name

    Thanks
    Simon

  • #2
    Simon

    Only an individual has a coat of arms and they differ with each generation - they are as unique as DNA!

    Family crests...hmmmm. Sometimes they adopt the main part of the coat of Arms of an ancestor, sometimes they don't. Again, they are unique to a particular branch of a particular family.


    As Thomas doesn't sound a very Armigerous name to me, I should imagine what you have found is a vanity crest, that is, something someone has made up at some point in history.

    The way to tell is to see if it is registered with the College of Heralds - it will cost you to find out. If it isn't registered, then it's a fake.

    Where did you find the Crest?

    OC

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    • #3
      Simon,

      To be accurate, the crest is only part of the coat of arms: it is the part that goes above the shield, usually an animal, a bird or a helmet. As OC says, the shield is different for each individual but a family might share a crest.

      Peter

      Comment


      • #4
        But if you have the right to a Coat of Arms, you'd know about it.
        ~ with love from Little Nell~
        Chowns, Dunt, Emms, Mealing, Purvey & Smoothy

        Comment


        • #5
          Thomas doesn't sound a very Armigerous name to me
          Pardon my ignorance, OC - but, a what name?? 'What's that, when it's at home', as my mother would have said??
          How have you come by that word? Can you prove it's not 'made up', just to entertain us?? LOL :D:D

          Bee.
          Bee~~~fuddled.

          Searching for BANKS, MILLER, MOULTON from Lancs and Cheshire; COX from Staffordshire and Birmingham;
          COX, HALL, LAMBDEN, WYNN, from Hants and Berks; SYMES (my mystery g'father!) from anywhere near Bournemouth.

          Comment


          • #6
            Armiger = a person having the right to bear arms.

            Armigerous = having the right to bear arms.

            Both words are mentioned quite a lot in books on Heraldry.

            OC

            Comment


            • #7
              Ah! - I'm reading the wrong books, then.

              Thanks for the explaination, OC - I love new words.

              Bee.
              Bee~~~fuddled.

              Searching for BANKS, MILLER, MOULTON from Lancs and Cheshire; COX from Staffordshire and Birmingham;
              COX, HALL, LAMBDEN, WYNN, from Hants and Berks; SYMES (my mystery g'father!) from anywhere near Bournemouth.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Olde Crone Holden View Post
                Simon

                Only an individual has a coat of arms and they differ with each generation - they are as unique as DNA!

                Family crests...hmmmm. Sometimes they adopt the main part of the coat of Arms of an ancestor, sometimes they don't. Again, they are unique to a particular branch of a particular family.


                As Thomas doesn't sound a very Armigerous name to me, I should imagine what you have found is a vanity crest, that is, something someone has made up at some point in history.

                The way to tell is to see if it is registered with the College of Heralds - it will cost you to find out. If it isn't registered, then it's a fake.

                Where did you find the Crest?

                OC
                Sorry but under the English system of heraldry this is not correct.

                English heraldry has never required differencing its use is purely voluntary.
                In addition the unmarried daughters of an armigerous person always use their father’s achievement undifferenced.

                I would also point out that there is and never has been any requirement to register “Arms” at the College of Arms this is another myth perpetuated by the College of Arms to increase trade.

                The true position of English Arms as shown by the Heralds Visitations is arms are recognized ‘upon strength of usage for a certain period’. It is not specified how long a person has to use arms before they are recognized.

                To imagine the majority of Arms used in the 13th, 14th and 15th centuries when they had a practical rather than academic use did so by virtue of a grant of arms is ridiculous. Any herald who suggested such would have not made it back to the college of arms in one piece.

                Incidentally it is the current Monarch who grants arms not heralds they are just the “clerks” in the system.
                Cheers
                Guy
                Guy passed away October 2022

                Comment


                • #9
                  Guy

                  For some reason I assumed we were talking about the modern use of Arms here.

                  Of course in the early centuries people adopted and made up their own arms, as you say, for very practical and everyday purposes, one of which was to be recognised on the battle field as friend or foe.

                  But these Arms were made up to a set of rules, surely, otherwise there would have been little point in having them.

                  Certainly, it is not necessary to register Arms with the Heralds, but I would have thought it was a bit pointless having them if you didn't, and it would make tracing the progression of such Arms very difficult.

                  Certainly, judging by the proliferation of "made up" Arms on various commercial sites, you don't have to register them and anyone, as you say, can adopt any coat of arms, family crest etc without the slightest need for any "truth" involved.

                  However, if the Arms ARE registered with the College of Heralds, that does at least give you a clue that they genuinely belonged to such a family and if you are cleverer than me, you can "read" the Arms and often trace the Bearer's ancestry right back to the Crusades.

                  Also, if you use or display Arms which do NOT rightfully belong to you, the rightful bearer will be extremely cheesed off with you and I suppose could theoretically charge you with identity fraud, although I have never actually heard of this happening.

                  OC

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Its not a recent example but i can tell you that the Grosvenor family were taken to court twice for bearing what two other families believed to be there Arms.
                    The first time it happened they changed it slightly and then another family seen it on the battle field and claimed that it was now identical to their Coat of Arms so after another court episode they were made to change it completly.

                    I believe the first family went by the name of Scrope.

                    Danny
                    http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=528974734

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Thanks for that, Danny - proof that Arms were taken very seriously, historically, by those who had them!

                      OC

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                      • #12
                        i was intrested in this question as i was looking for the holder coat of arms too,with no such find brenda xxx

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I am in possession of a picture of a coat of arms which is supposed to belong to a member of my fringe family, and my first thought was it was a fake. I am assured by the person who sent it to me that she has seen the original plate! I asked the College of Arms for further help and they have never written back to me!! They do say on their website that if they do not answer your query that your submission is not a valid one so..........!

                          This is always a tetchy subject, with many people believing that if they buy these cheap plaques from gift shops that they possess a "Coat of Arms", but most people do seem to realise that this is very incorrect. I am quite sure that if you are meant to be a bearer of a "Coat of Arms" legitimately, that the answer to whether or not you have the right, will be in your own family vaults somewhere. This will never be a lost or forgotten feature within your family history. I do have an ancestor with a legitimate coat of arms who was created a baronet by George 4 when he came back to England with the Tsar for whom he was working, but this was only a knighthood for him and was never passed to his family, but presumably the family kept the "Coat of Arms"/"Family Crests" and I suppose there is nothing to stop them from continuing to use them?

                          Janet
                          Last edited by Janet; 26-05-08, 15:13.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Oddly, there is no automatic right of transfer to coat of arms - you have to actively make your claim, otherwise they just languish (as far as the Colege of Heralds is concerned, anyway).

                            But I think most families would be proud of bearing arms and would continue to stake their claim.

                            The Holden arms have now passed through two name changes and the legitimate holder of these is a female, who has changed her name to Holden with the approval of the Courts. The Holden arms are now quartered with the male lines of her own family and that of her husband.

                            OC

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I have insufficient understanding of the whole business of establishing coats of arms or family crests, but have always been given to understand that the 'family history' stalls one finds in shopping malls were on a par with those glorified telephone book collections being touted as the 'World Book of *insert family name here*.

                              I was privileged to be part of a private tour of the College of Arms last year, conducted around by Garter King of Arms who displayed some of the arms he had been designing...it had been a particularly busy time for him, as Tony Blair had just added substantially to the Peerage. I was also able to view a few of the very earliest designs for arms granted in England...they were absolutely beautiful...as well as the pedigree drawn up for OHs GOULD family.

                              It was a wonderful day for me and I don't think I shall ever forget it.

                              Beverley



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                              • #16
                                MacBev

                                Oooh, I'm green with jealousy - what I wouldn't give for that opportunity!

                                OC

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                                • #17
                                  Originally posted by Olde Crone Holden View Post
                                  MacBev

                                  Oooh, I'm green with jealousy - what I wouldn't give for that opportunity!

                                  OC
                                  And I was only the hanger-on of the real guest.........and we lunched at Boodles before hand. :D

                                  Beverley



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                                  • #18
                                    Thanks everyone for the info, I did not realise there was so much to it all. We don't have much info about that sort of thing over here....you know how we colonists are lol :D

                                    Simon

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Originally posted by Olde Crone Holden View Post
                                      Guy

                                      snip
                                      But these Arms were made up to a set of rules, surely, otherwise there would have been little point in having them.
                                      Yes certainly there are "rules" as to the format of an achievment. These have been developed over time but they are not laws and would probably be better described (as Fox-Davis suggests) as accepted methods of blazoning

                                      Originally posted by Olde Crone Holden View Post
                                      snip

                                      Certainly, judging by the proliferation of "made up" Arms on various commercial sites, you don't have to register them and anyone, as you say, can adopt any coat of arms, family crest etc without the slightest need for any "truth" involved.
                                      No I did not say anyone could adopt any coat of arms, anyone may bear arms by prescription but they cannot use another's arms unless descended (there are a few exceptions to this) from the other person.

                                      Originally posted by Olde Crone Holden View Post
                                      However, if the Arms ARE registered with the College of Heralds, that does at least give you a clue that they genuinely belonged to such a family and if you are cleverer than me, you can "read" the Arms and often trace the Bearer's ancestry right back to the Crusades.
                                      That is where the rules of blazon come in very handy, an achievement is written out in a specific manner making any description very easy to follow once the terms used are understood.

                                      Originally posted by Olde Crone Holden View Post
                                      Also, if you use or display Arms which do NOT rightfully belong to you, the rightful bearer will be extremely cheesed off with you and I suppose could theoretically charge you with identity fraud, although I have never actually heard of this happening.

                                      OC
                                      Certainly one of the earliest was in Edward IIIs reign between William Carminow, Sheriff of Cornwall and Richard le Scrope (the Chancellor of the Exchequer)
                                      I can't off the top of my head remember when the last dispute was heard but it was around 90 years ago.
                                      Cheers
                                      Guy
                                      Guy passed away October 2022

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Certainly one of the earliest was in Edward IIIs reign between William Carminow, Sheriff of Cornwall and Richard le Scrope (the Chancellor of the Exchequer)
                                        I can't off the top of my head remember when the last dispute was heard but it was around 90 years ago.
                                        Cheers
                                        Guy

                                        Yeah thats both the families that the Grosvenors had the court battle's with

                                        Grosvenor vs Scrope

                                        Danny
                                        http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=528974734

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