What's your take on this seeming sex change?

[Little Nell]

This is an old thread, but see the last post (posted today) to see more gender confusion!

OOOH! see my new theory 4th post down!

1871
RG10 618 56 p.19
121 Portland Street, Newington, Surrey
Louisa Matthews 33 widow head cowkeeper
John 19 Long Compton son cowman
Louisa 13 Walsworth daur no occupation given
Richard b. Walsworth age 9 scholar
Henry John 6 scholar
Joseph 3 no occupation
Edwin Josh Smith 3 visitor no occupation [Edwin Joseph Smith, who is also on 1871 census in Marylebone with his parents!]

1881
RG11 0546 19 p.11/12
56 Portland Street, Newington
Lucy A. Matthews, widow, shop keeper 43 b. Bermondsey
Louisa Matthews, machinist 23 b Surrey, Newington
Richard E. Matthews, 19 labeller b Surrey, Newington
Henry J. Matthews, 16 labeller b Surrey, Newington
Mary Matthews 13 b scholar Surrey, Newington

[Little Nell]

Of course the problem is with a name like Matthews it is difficult to find Joseph/Mary later on.

I've found a possible birth reg for Joseph but nothing for Mary.

[LeicestershireLass]

Hi Nell - have you seen this one?

Births Mar 1868 Vol 2a Page 93 Farnham

Mathews Mary

The district Farnham spans the boundaries of the counties of Hampshire, Surrey and Sussex

maybe Joseph died between 1871 -1881 ?????

[James]

Hi Nell
Second one different address
Could Mary be a daughter of Lucy A?
Where is Louisa 43 widow?
Could Mary be a Sister/Cousin of Louisa?
Who was living at 56 Portland Street in 1871?

[Little Nell]

Lass

Farnham is indeed in Surrey but a completely different bit. Newington is in Greater London on the borders of Elephant & Castle, and is a registration district too. But thank you for taking the time to look.

James
I am sure that the families 1871 and 1881 are the same. Lucy A. is, think, a mishearing of Louisa as this is the only record in which she appears as Lucy A.

Henry John/HJ Matthews appears to be the same child and Richard/Richard E. ditto (I know this is the right chap as he was Richard Emmets Matthews, named after his grandfather and my gt gt grandfather Emmets Matthews)

1891 they are living at 66 Portland Street. I have often found, especially in London, that people moved up and down the same street quite often.

But thank you for your thoughts and observations.

I'm just wondering if Mary/Joseph is the same child wrongly recorded somewhere or whether they were twins who happen to have been apart on census night or indeed siblings born within a year of eachother. But I can't find credible Mary elswhere when Joseph is at home 1871 or credible Joseph elsewhere when Mary is in 1881 at home.

Joseph was still living with mother Louisa in 1891.

Of course Mary could have been off in domestic service but Mary is such a common name and she may have married/died. I suppose I will have to check baptism records at some point.

I even checked out the visitor Edwin Josh Smith, hoping that in 1881 Joseph might be visiting with him, no luck.

[Little Nell]

what about this idea?!

Louisa was 2nd wife, then widow of John Matthews.
John Matthews described as her son in 1871 was in fact her stepson, a child from John's previous marriage.

John also had a daughter, born in Warwickshire, Martha Maria Matthews. She is with her father and stepmother in 1861, but she died in 1869.

Supposing Mary is illegitimate child of Martha, whom Louisa took over as her own child after Martha's death?

It fits the time frame. Maybe Mary was a nurse child elsewhere in 1871?

[Christine in Herts]

Looks plausible at first glance, Nell. Worth following up, I'd say.

Christine

[Little Nell]

Yes, the answer is probably out there somewhere!
Thanks for your interest.

[BigShaz McCreadie]

Nell

I was looking up the brother of OH's Great grandfather on the 1901 census and found him with his family.

One daughter was named Josephina on the census and was aged 6yrs.
I then found a marriage for her in 1924 and her name was then Josephine.

I wondered if she had been Joseph Ine or Ina at birth so decided to ask OH's elderly Aunt who informed me that that was their Vina

I then went looking for her birth and got a shock myself when I found Josephine in the index born 1894 (she was still to turn 7 at time of 1901 census) but when I looked at the extract the name of the child was Joseph and was listed as a male child.

Stamped at the side of the registration was the stamp informing me that the entry had been corrected in 1935!! Sure enough it had been changed and the letters had been added in to make the Joseph a Josephine although the M for male hadn't been changed to F for female.

Scotland's People have added the RCE's and usually it flags up in a red box that you can click on to view the correction but for some reason this isn't happening with this one (or another one I have which involves a suicide) so I will have to check them out when I next get to register house. but I too have wondered why she was listed as a male Joseph even though she appears on a census as a daughter and was actually married for 11yrs before anyone changed it :D

[Pamdidle]

Shaz.

Perhaps he was born a intersexual child.

[BigShaz McCreadie]

Shaz.

Perhaps he was born a intersexual child.

It was only on her birth cert that she was a he.

Everywhere else she was a she and she married a man too :D

But you are right I guess it is possible although I'm sure she had children which would have made this unlikely.

[Pamdidle]

Well Shaz if they are intersexual they have both male and female organs



They used to be called hermaphrodites

[BigShaz McCreadie]

Well Shaz if they are intersexual they have both male and female organs



They used to be called hermaphrodites

Yes we studied this in Human biology too.
Strange that the things that interested me the most in Biology were my lectures and assignments on genetics and reproduction.

The explanation of the process that causes the problem is actualy quite complex and not straight forward at all. There is more than one chromosomal abnormailty that results in 'Intersexuality' but I have not yet heard of a case where the 'hermaphrodite' has been fertile.

So in the case of OH's Vina (Joseph/ine) I think there must be another explanation.

She would not have bore the children she had otherwise.

[Pamdidle]

[QUOTE=BigShaz McCreadie There is more than one chromosomal abnormailty that results in 'Intersexuality' but I have not yet heard of a case where the 'hermaphrodite' has been fertile.

So in the case of OH's Vina (Joseph/ine) I think there must be another explanation.

[/QUOTE]

Oh! Didnt know that Shaz. I've learned something:o

[BigShaz McCreadie]

Oh! Didnt know that Shaz. I've learned something:o

It may still be a possibilty though Pam until I get my hands on birth certs for the children.

I had actually put this lot at the back of my 'things to check' list but now I'm all fired up with them again so guess some other bits have to go on the back burner for now :D

[Little Nell]

Gotta laugh!

Thought I'd see if I could find a marriage for a Mary Matthews, father John on LMA records online - in case father's occupation matched and I could claim Mary. Guess what, I found a marriage at the right kind of time and place - more gender confusion!

Mary John William Matthews abt 1868 19 Nov 1893 Selina Jane Emily Evans Saint John The Evangelist, Walworth

[JBee]

Perhaps Mary was supposed to be Marry??!!!

[Little Nell]

According to the image its Harry!

[GallowayLass]

Nell
Scotland's People have added the RCE's and usually it flags up in a red box that you can click on to view the correction but for some reason this isn't happening with this one (or another one I have which involves a suicide) so I will have to check them out when I next get to register house. but I too have wondered why she was listed as a male Joseph even though she appears on a census as a daughter and was actually married for 11yrs before anyone changed it :D

Shaz - I just sent proof of facts for a correction to my parents's marriage certificate this past December. Although they have accepted the proof and will correct the register I was told it could take up to a couple of years for the changes to work through onto Scotlands' People website!! If I order a cert in person or by post though, it will show the corrections - provided I leave it at least a couple of months to give them time to correct the register in the first place.

It was interesting to find out that the version of Scotland's People that is available in the search rooms now is not the same as the online one and updates/crossovers between the two are very, very slow to happen. They have had loads of complaints that the BMD search facility will only allow you to search blocks of 5 years at time. This wasted such a lot of my time but it looks like it will stay that way for some time yet.

[taffyfrog]

A bit of a shot in the dark but what about a Joseph or Mary being a middle name? I know it sounds weird but here is an example - although it's not the one you're looking for but as a reference - she/he is not alone:

Births Dec 1878

MATTHEWS Mary Joseph Conway 11b 516

There could be the biblical connection - I have a couple of Mary Josephs in my Catholic French family in law. What denomination were your family?