1861+1881 CENSUS HELP PLZ (Mary Donnelly Ward, Dundee)

[Richard]

Any help with this please:



1851 Census: Mitchel Kennan Household, Buicks Fues Aborks Land, South Road, Lochee, Dundee, Angus

Bridget Donnelly, widow, 40, Servant, Ireland
Mary Donnelly, daughter, 24, Millworker, Ireland
Margaret Donnelly, daughter, 16, Factory Worker, Ireland
Cormack Donnelly son, 14, Flax Draper, Ireland
Andrew Donnelly, son, 9, Ireland
James Holochan, 18, Reed Maker, Ireland


Have tracked with certainty the other siblings of Margaret who is my 3xgreat grandmother, but not 100% with Mary.

In 1871 I have this for Cormack:

16 Walton Street, St Mary, Dundee, Liff and Benvie, Angus

Cormack Donnelly 36
Mary Donnelly 37

Mary Ward, 40,
Margaret Ward 18
Bridget Ward, 16
James Ward 14
Michael Ward 6
Matthew Ward 9 months


I'm working along the lines that Mary Ward is the older sister. Found this marriage on the OPC which fits about right:

"21st August 1852 This day John Ward and Mary Donnely both of this parish gave up their names to be proclaimed in order to marriage, Dundee Liff and Benvie"

However cannot find the Mary and family in 1861 or 1881 census to confirm it, plus a death cert I downloaded for a Mary Ward, wife of John, in 1873 was for a different woman altogether by looks of it.

[Uncle John]

A few thoughts to be going on with.

In 1871 Cormack is spelt DONELY on the Ancestry transcription. And for clarification, the Donely and Ward families are separate households at the same address.

In 1891 Cormack and Mary are at 64 Blackness Rd Liff & Benvie and Cormack is a Coal Labourer.

In 1881 they are at 19 (unspecified) St. Andrews, Dundee and he's a Yarn Bundler (Jute).

How about 1861:

Cormick Donelly (25) and Mary Donelly (23), lodging with Peter and Ann Monaghan at Blackness Road, Liff & Benvie.

[Richard]

Uncle John

Thanks but I do have Cormack on all the census, death certs et all. He is fine. It's sister Mary that bothers me.

I'm 99% sure that is her in 1871. I don't know, but suspect its not significant Ancestry has them as 'seperate households' when you look at the actual images on Scotlands people, I tend to find if the adress is the same often they are in same household, perhaps mary and family had one room and Cormack and Mary the other.

It's Mary and her family which annoyingly I cannot find in other censi.

[Uncle John]

There's only one OPR marriage of a Mary Donnelly to a Ward between 1851 and 1854 but not in Angus. There's no matches at all from 1855 to 1871.

[Richard]

Uncle John do you have any more info on the Donnelly Ward Marriage? I could only find one, but was in Angus:

"21st August 1852 This day John Ward and Mary Donnely both of this parish gave up their names to be proclaimed in order to marriage, Dundee Liff and Benvie"

I at first thought great, matches the first date of the oldest child to the Mary Ward with Cormack Donnelly in 1871.

However when I downloaded a death cert for Mary Ward in Dundee got this:

Mary Ward married to John Ward, private 40th ?, died 24 April 1873 at 0.13 am, Rallways ?, Dundee, circa 41 years, daughter of John Donnelly, mason, and Catherine Donnally maiden name Carolan (deceased), cause of death: morbus cordis, duration: months, not cert, informant John Donnelly, step brother.

My Mary is the daughter of a James Donnelly and Bridget McGoan, and had no step brother John, so clearly a different woman..is the marriage from 1852 then actually hers?

Also have a workhouse record:

Mary Donally or Ward, Roman Catholic, born Ireland, 28, wife of John Ward, admitted 18 October 1870,with children Elizabeth Ward 9, born Dundee, and Rose Ward, 7, born Dundee, removed 5 November , reason: mother found to have pthisis, family dismissed.


At first I thought she was mine, but given the closeness in dates to the 1871 census, this is clearly not the same woman living in same house as Cormack Donnelly and his wife. If she is the same woman the death cert and workhouse record applies to, than I am left with just the 1871 Census as a source for my Mary, and no other idea what happened to her.

A thought occurs to me, prior 1855 do the records on Scotlands people include those outside Church of Scotland? I'd imagine my Mary was married in the Roman Catholic Church.

[Uncle John]

Sorry had to dash out. Looking at your last question first, ScotlandsPeople OPRs (pre-1855) are Church of Scotland only. I have a whole family group gone AWOL because of this.

Right, I seem to have your John Ward/Mary Donnely (one l) marriage in 1852 in Liff, Angus. I don't think it's worth paying to view it, because it probably won't tell you any more than you already know.

By the way, I have some of my wife's ancestors in Liff and Benvie (no relation to yours). They are still just two tiny villages to the west of Dundee city.

I'll try and have another go at this tomorrow.

[Dancing Sheila]

Don't have any new information for you (but may try tomorrow night), but I thought I should point out that the streets being mentioned, Blackness Rd, St Andrews ? are actually in Dundee. Dundee is my home town.

I don't know enough about census districts or OPR districts to know why they come under Liff and Benvie, I have one or two myself and it threw me for a bit because I knew I had the right people!

Also, the properties are almost certainly tenements, so one address and several separate households.

Hope this helps and I'll see what I can do tomorrow.

[Richard]

Thanks uncle John and Sheila, (apologies for not doing so sooner!)