Opinions on reputed father please

[samesizedfeet]

I found this reference to a relative of mine several years ago and stupidly never followed up the detail to prove it. Over time in my head it became fact. It's only when I found the print out from the site last week that I realised what was actually written.

It relates to Henrietta Hodson....

She very probably had another son in 1887, with Charles Haydon Coffin, the well-known baritone of American descent, who was however named after his mother as Gilbert Stephen Hodson and had offspring.


There is a Gilbert Stephen Hodson born in Mar 1888 in Holborn on FreeBMD

I've found Gilbert in 1891 and 1901 and he's a boarder with a couple called John and Mary Wilson in Kent - so nothing there to prove who his parents are.

His marriage certificate in 1908 says..

"Gilbert Stephen Hodson otherwise Gilbert Stephen Coffin"

Two of the witnesses (there are five altogether) are John Wilson and Mary Wilson.

I have the birth certificate on order but it's late in arriving.

In 1888 Henrietta was about 46 and Charles would have been 25.

Henrietta already had two children, one to her first husband Richard (a son called George Walter Noel Pigeon) and one to her long term lover Henry (she later married him after husband no1 died)

I can't find George anywhere except his baptism and birth ref - he's certainly not with Henrietta in the census so I've a feeling he may have been farmed out too.

Future husband Henry was an MP and there was a lot of scandal surrounding them living together unmarried and having a child so I'm not surprised that Gilbert was hidden away from London society, if he is hers.

I've got a feeling the cert is going to come back with no fathers name on it.
Do I have enough circumstantial evidence to say he is a love child of Henrietta and Charles?

I'd appreciate the opinions of the seasoned fellows on here


Cheers

Zoe

[Merry Monty Montgomery]

I agree that the father's name is unlikely to be on the birth cert, as if the box was completed with the details of a person with a different surname to the mother, there should be a separate index entry in the GRO indexes.

I think you do have good circumstantial evidence though.

What did he say about his father on the marriage cert?

[samesizedfeet]

the name box has got "unknown" in it and the occupation has a line through it

[KiteRunner]

Have you tried to find out whether the "reputed father" left a will, Zoe?

[samesizedfeet]

Not yet, no.

He died 8 Dec 1935 and I know he had other children through his later marriage.

She would have been pretty wealthy I imagine - but she died before her husband. Would she have left her own Will as well or was it a tiem when he officially owned all her possessions?

They both died in Florence but they had property here - which may not help.

[KiteRunner]

Married women could own their own stuff by then, Zoe. Worth checking for wills, I should think - if they owned property in this country then it may well be listed in the National Probate Calendar even if they died abroad. It just so happens that I've just volunteered to go and look a couple of entries up for someone else, so would you like me to look for these ones while I'm there?

[samesizedfeet]

Oooooh - if you don't mind, that'd be lovely

She is Henrietta Ellen Labouchere (born Hodson, formerly Pidgeon)
died 30th October 1910

he is Charles Hayden Coffin
died 8th December 1935

THANK YOU

Z

[Olde Crone Holden]

You may remember my mad magician thread, lol. If not, it was a similar scenario - high born, important man fathering illegimate children everywhere.

The BAPTISMS proved who the father was (not the birth certs though) for one set of children. The other set were a complete surprise and I was only alerted to their existence by the Will of the Important Man.

The children had different surnames from him and from their mother, and it was only because they were left the bulk of the estate (with absolutely no relationship being given in the Will) that I tracked these children and found them on the census living with their mother - they were described as visitors!

He later married their mother,(who was a member of the upper crust) but the children were never formally acknowledged by either of them. I have found neither baptisms nor birth certs for these two children but have absolutely no doubt as to their parentage.

Wills are defiinitely the way to go but I see that Kate has that in hand already!

OC

[KiteRunner]

Sorry, no entry for either Henrietta or Charles, or at least not in the years I searched (3 years for each of them, and I searched for all of Henrietta's possible surnames)!) I don't suppose Henrietta's husband was "the right honourable Henry Du Pre Labouchere of the Reform Club, Middlesex, died 15 Jan 1912 at Villa Christina Montighi Florence Italy", was he?

[Merry Monty Montgomery]

Kite, that one is on Zoe's tree!

[KiteRunner]

Ooh, well, he left a will but I don't suppose it will mention who his stepson's father was.
1912 LABOUCHERE the right honourable Henry Du Pre of the Reform Club Middlesex died 15 Jan 1912 at Villa Christina Montighi Florence Italy. Probate London to the right honourable Reginald McKenna barrister-at-law and secretary of state and Thomas Hart Davies esquire. Effects £522306 7s 1d Resworn £550020 7s 1d.

Things I love about this one - having a Secretary of State as one of the executors; getting the shillings and pence right but overlooking £27000 somewhere! He was pretty rich for 1912, wasn't he? For some reason they don't give the actual date when probate was granted but it was 1912, so if you want to order a copy of the will there is enough info there for them to find it anyway.

[Merry Monty Montgomery]

Ah but it was the fault of some foreigners!! lolol

The Times 25th Jan 1912

25th jan 1912.jpg

(sorry, I'm a bit bored!)

[samesizedfeet]

The agonising wait continues......

the 3rd of four certificates arrived today (all ordered at same time and due for despatch last Friday) and it's still not the one I want most - it was for the Pigeon child.

Thanks for the look ups Kate. Wasn't expecting that result - I felt quite sure at least she would have left something.

Henry Dupre Labouchere is the husband. he inherited a lot of money from his uncle Henry, 1st baron Taunton, as the uncle only had female children and Henry was the eldest male in the family.

Henry Dupre Labouchere's grandmother was a Baring, as in the Bank of Baring (the one that Nick Leeson broke), so I guess a lot of money came from that bit of the family.

[samesizedfeet]

Okay - at ease men!!!!

Birth cert arrived this morning and there's no father's name...... and the mother is named as Emily Hodson, occupation "Dramatist"

so now I just need to figure out who Emily is and if she's one of mine

Expect a new thread in due course, LOL

[Little Nell]

This is very intriguing, Zoe!

[samesizedfeet]

Well it's totally destroyed my feelings about Henrietta being deep down evil for having abandoned two children.

Now she's just maybe a bit odd because she's misplaced one son somewhere along teh way.

If I ever get my hands on the man who runs the website Labouchere.co.uk where I found the information in the first place - grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

[Pippa Doll]

Didn't you have a thread a while ago about an Emily Hodson that just appeared?

[samesizedfeet]

nearly - that was Ellen Hodson

from what I can make out Emily doesn't appear to be related. Although I can't find her father in 1841 and 1851. He was born in London around 1830 and my Hodsons should be in Dublin until 1831