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Ancestry DNA: Should I expect a proper answer or am I being too finicky?

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  • Ancestry DNA: Should I expect a proper answer or am I being too finicky?

    I would like to know how many DNA samples there are on the Ancestry DNA database. Surely Ancestry must know (they must be able to do a breakdown/count the number of records on their database)!

    My relatives/genealogical associates and I are considering Ancestry DNA as an option for doing some DNA tests for us. The tests aren't cheap and I would like to know how many samples are currently available on their database for our own DNA samples to be checked against.

    I have sent Ancestry an email (below), what do you think, honest opinions please.

    xxxxx

    Dear Sir

    My genealogical relatives, associates and I are very interested in taking Paternal and Maternal DNA tests. Please could you tell us how many Y-Chromosome samples and how many Mitochondrial samples you currently have on your database(s). It would be greatly appreciated if you would give us separate numbers for the UK, total European(including the UK) and total World-wide DNA samples you have for both Y-Chromosome and Mitochondria.

    We look forward to your reply with anticipation.

    Yours faithfully

    xxxxx

    Ancestry reply:

    Dear John

    We are currently well on our way to having 50,000 sample in 6 months. We are unable at this time to break it down, by test type and geographic location at this time.

    DNA.Ancestry

    xxxxx

    Dear Sir

    Thank you for your reply. We appreciate that you are aiming to have 50,000 samples in 6 months time. We are however surprised that you are unable to provide the breakdown requested.

    Please would you confirm how many samples you currently have on your database.

    We look forward to your reply.

    Yours faithfully

    xxxxx

    Waiting for a reply now.

  • #2
    I very much doubt that they'll give you a straight answer, unfortunately! Much like the family tree databases such as GR & LostCousins, the Ancestry DNA database is only going to be of much use once it achieves a critical mass of data, so that matches between different users start to occur. Therefore, when the database is quite new (such as is the case for the Ancestry DNA database), you are unlikely to get many/any matches at present. This in turn discourages people from entering their data - so it's a Catch-22 situation really! The best they can do is to "talk it up" in the early stages, in the hope that enough people register and therefore they can build up the required critical mass for it to really work.

    Of course this is more of a problem with a DNA database than a family tree site, due not only to the costs involved but also the reluctance of people to send their personal DNA samples to a nebulous commercial organisation (especially an American one, and one that is run by religious fanatics to boot!!). My guess (and it is only a guess) is that they currently have far, far fewer than their "target" of 50,000 samples. And I bet that >95% of the ones they do have are from people living in USA, as well. Not that the latter is particularly a problem, of course - as many Americans will have British roots in any case, so you might still get matches.

    Also, don't be fooled into thinking that DNA testing is going to solve all your brick walls (or even contribute much hard data to your family tree at all). Y-chromosome testing will only find matches in your patrilineal (male-line) ancestry - which is one branch/twig on your tree really. And even if you get a match, it won't tell you exactly how many generations back to the common ancestor (nor what his name was, where he lived, when he was born/died, etc etc!). Mitochondrial DNA testing will tell you even less, from a genealogical point of view. It will tell you the "haplogroup" of your matrilineal (female-line) ancestry (which again, is just one twig in your total ancestral tree). It might be very interesting to know that ggggggg...g'm came from a certain tribe in Africa, but you couldn't really put her on your tree!

    Cheers,
    Richard
    Last edited by Richard in Perth; 08-04-08, 07:04.

    Comment


    • #3
      Richard, I agree with you that it's a Catch-22 situation however as Ancestry expects its potential customers to reach deep into their pockets for hundreds of pounds (in my personal case I would like four tests done and then above that additional tests may be required and paid for by my associates) I feel that they should be more open.

      I am also inclined to agree with you that they probably have far fewer than 50,000 samples and my personal feeling is that they probably won't reach that target in 6 months time. However I may be wrong.

      If they were to reduce the price for the tests substantially I would be more willing to have the tests done with them, even though their database may not be as large as they or their customers would like it to be.

      I am familiar with using Ancestry so this is one of the reasons that they are on my list of potential DNA testers. As it stands at the moment, if they are not forth coming with the figures I want then I will probably use another DNA tester, one that is more open to providing answers to my questions.

      Just read your last paragraph. Yes, I'm not expecting the DNA tests to be the answer to everything but they will help. For example two of the tests I want will be to help determine whether or not my great grandfather and chap X's grandfather are the same person.

      Many thanks for your input, it's much appreciated.
      Last edited by Guest; 08-04-08, 09:36.

      Comment


      • #4
        John

        Have you considered using a High St tester? Many large pharmacies now offer Y testing and their costs are considerably cheaper than Ancestry - although I have no idea what you get for your money.

        It sounds as if you are wanting specific one-to-one comparative tests done, rather than throwing yourself into the general stewpot as it were.

        I do share Richard's concerns about Ancestry being the holders of this information. I have no reason to doubt their present integrity but they are after all, a commercial company, and commercial companies get bought and sold and you would have no control over what happened to your DNA information.

        Another way to go would be one name group testing. I have seen one of these - the Holdens, lol - and of course, these groups also suffer from the same lack of samples as Ancestry does at present. The Holden one has so far tested about 20 samples (from memory) and the information gleaned is not really of very much benefit to anyone yet, except that one poor soul has discovered that he has nothing in common with the Holden group, which must leave him with quite a few unexpected and unanswered questions!

        The other four groups in the Holden test database share a common male ancestor between 10,000 and 40,000 years ago - very helpful.

        Where Ancestry wins over this situation (or WILL win, when their database is sufficiently large) is by comparing against ALL in the database, irrespective of surname. I think that is a very good idea, although if you find you belong to the Buggins name group instead of the Bloggs, I am not quite sure how you identify your ancestor.

        Using the Holden project as an example again, all the participants are US citizens and their trees go back to the gateway Holden ancestor who arrived in the US in the 1700s. They know nothing else about him, such as his origins in the UK, and as they had already done their paper trees, all that DNA testing has given them is a very expensive confirmation that their paperwork is (broadly!) correct.

        OC

        Comment


        • #5
          OC

          I haven't gone into checking out the High St. Do you mean places like Boots? I can't really remember the names of many High Street pharmacies so any other names you can give that may offer testing would be much appreciated. When I next visit England I will look into it.

          I know I've talked about this before but I am now wanting further tests, both, specific one-to-one tests and also to be thrown into the stewpot to see what, if any, current or future matches there may be.

          I too am a little concerned about commercial companies and their future objectives regarding personal information they have obtained. It is always at the back of my mind but if I am to progress and get what I want then I have to weigh up the pro's and con's for each testing service otherwise I won't get very far.

          I'm not too keen at this stage to go into one name group testing as my tree is dotted with adoptions and name variations, etc. I've also not as yet come across any such groups for the names that interest me.

          I know that DNA testing is expensive, you can get many of the usual genealogical cert's for the price of one DNA test but the cert's will most likely always be around to refer to whereas people have a tendency to die and so opportunities are lost where DNA testing is concerned.

          I am also trying to look into DNA testing facilities here but as of yet I've not had any luck.

          Comment


          • #6
            John

            I am pretty sure that all the major pharmacies in England now offer DNA testing. I feel (slightly!) more confident in their ability to either store safely, or destroy samples, as there are strict laws in Britain which do not apply in other countries.

            As it happens, my own feelings about DNA testing are that it is ONLY useful in a one-to-one situation such as you describe, where there is a question mark. I really don't see that it has any use as a general genealogical tool yet, and I feel that it is being oversold at the moment, to people who do not understand exactly what DNA testing is going to tell them.

            OC

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            • #7
              Thanks OC, I guess I need a little more patience. I will wait until I come to England. Hopefully nobody will kick the bucket before then.

              Comment


              • #8
                Suggest you consider FTDNA ( Family Tree DNA - we do genetic tests for your genealogy questions! ). It has more than 120 thousand samples in its Y-DNA database. It is also associated with a university in the USA.

                It also runs an 'open' capability where results from other dna test centres can be compared.

                Ours is an Irish-Scottish family and I face the Irish brick wall on my direct line. FTDNA have come up with several promising leads.

                Worth looking at.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Hugo

                  I have looked at that site and am slightly alarmed by its stated privacy laws.

                  Yes, fine, you will only be put in touch with a match if you have both signed a release form...fine...but it says NOTHING about either the present security of the actual samples, nor what may or may not happen to them in the future.

                  Possibly I am being paranoid!

                  OC

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                  • #10
                    Oxford Ancestors destroy DNA samples after they have been tested.
                    Gwynne

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      It is NOT my area of expertise, but isn't it the case that different tests are looking for different markers?

                      To feel convinced that you really are part of a family (as opposed to a white caucasian) you do need quite a lot of markers.

                      Might it be more useful to ask how sophisticated the testing really is? I would have thought that Ancestry was aiming at the Asda rather than the Fortnum & Masons end of the market.
                      Phoenix - with charred feathers
                      Researching Skillings from Norfolk, Sworn from Salisbury and Adams in Malborough, Devon.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Gwynne

                        Yes, that's what I mean about security (or lack of it) in other countries. There is nothing on any of the American sites to say that they DESTROY the samples, which worries me.

                        Phoenix

                        As with everything i life, you get what you pay for! the more you pay, the more markers you can have tested, which refines the matching process.

                        I think that John wishes to establish in the first instance whether he and another man known to him, have the same male relative in common. That is a straightforward test in a high st pharmacy and it rarely needs whistles and bells! They presumably already know who the common link ought to be, so it is just a question of "Do we share the same Y chromosome or not?"

                        OC

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Hi Hugo, Thank you for the link. Family Tree DNA is actually one of the testers on my list but it is always interesting to know what experiences people have had.

                          OC, I too have various concerns regarding each of the main DNA testers that advertise. All of them to a certain degree only give out information that they want you to see. Which is what you'd probably expect! However, if I ask questions, like I am currently asking of Ancestry then I expect an answer. I don't expect to be ignored because it is a question that they don't like. This makes me think that Ancestry or any tester for that matter has something to hide.

                          Gwynne, I did look at Oxford Ancestors but I also have a few issues with them. A couple being the price, it's quite expensive compared to other testers and they only appear to test against 10 markers. At present it will probably serve my purposes to have minimal tests done, however I am also thinking about the future (maybe in a few years time or so). I want to have as much DNA test information as I can on a database before people start dropping off so that at a future time I can possible match it to others.

                          Phoenix, As OC says, you tend to have to pay more as the number of markers tested increases. I would like to have lots of markers tested but it comes down to money and also the number of markers other people have tested.

                          OC, You are correct that in the first instance I do want a one-to-one test. Even if/when we have the one-to-one test it won't give us a complete picture of what we want to know. A link does exist, we know who the mother link is but we don't know if she had more than one partner. It comes down to either brothers or half brothers? If brothers then great, we only have to search for one father. There are no fathers named on the birth certificates or any other documents that I've come across so far. It's all a long shot but as with everything, the more information you can gather the more likely you are to get an answer.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            John

                            Ah, it IS more complicated than I thought.

                            If you and Joe Bloggs have the same Y chromosome in this particular case, then it does not necessarily mean you have the same father or grandfather. there could be two fathers involved, both of whom have the same Y marker - not at all uncommon in geographical terms.

                            You would indeed need a far more detailed test to rule this out, and to rule out the possibility that the fathers were biologically related, say brothers or cousins etc.

                            Yes, I would be worried about a less than straightforward answer to your questions re Ancestry!

                            If you ever decide to go ahead, please let us know the outcome in broad terms, and whether you think it was worth it (financially!)

                            OC

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              OC
                              I had not thought specifically about the points you raise although I had misgivings because it is a USA company.

                              I participated because it it hosted my clan project.

                              Hugo

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                              • #16
                                OC

                                Sorry I didn't reply earlier, I've been on holiday. I will let you know what happens as I progress.

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  The One Name Society I belong to co-ordinates DNA Y chromosome testing. We ask people who have the test to have it tested for 37 markers (at least). Anything less than that is not statistically significant. So far about 25 males carrying the surname have been tested and there are some very interesting results. I won't mention the name here because some of the research is ongoing. However I can say it is a fairly uncommon name which may have 'started' in several areas of the country.

                                  Some of the findings are: firstly a 'negative' one! Several members have traced their family tree to Lincolnshire but NON of them have a significantly matching Y DNA result. You might say - so what? But if you think about it it is interesting and saves those people from trying to 'connect' their families.

                                  Secondly: One member has not been able to trace his family out of Liverpool in the 18C. However his DNA is an exact (37/37) match to three other members whose family is already proven to be connected in Buckinghamshire! He doesn't know how he connects but is at least pointed in the right direction.

                                  Thirdly: A very recent breakthrough is that one pair of matching people are descended from an illegitimate set of births - so they are not of 'our' name at all!! One member knew he was from the illegitmate children but the other had gone on the wrong line (a long way back!). The DNA match prompted more research and we found a will leaving legacies to EIGHT 'natural' children!!! Very unusual - but we would never have looked at it without the DNA match!!

                                  Good results I think - so long as you don't think it will solve all problems. It MIGHT point you in the right direction.

                                  Anne

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Anne

                                    But that is the point. If the non matches were tested against every other name in the world, lol, then they might get somewhere useful.

                                    A non-match may tell you not to bother with the Bloggs family anymore, but even this is a misleading result in some cases.

                                    My 2 x GGF, James Holden, was almost certainly illegitimate and I do have a name for his father. So I should be tracing THAT surname, not Holden. But James' mother was DEFINITELY a Holden, so the Holden line is still a very important part of my tree and of my own personal history.

                                    All your non-Bloggs matches are now floundering about with nowhere to go - they may well be descended from female Bloggs though!

                                    However, I can see the point to a certain extent, in one name testing, and I always find these studies fascinating.

                                    OC

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      No, no OC. The whole point of our One Name DNA project is to see it people with this name are related to each other. If not .... well ****

                                      No one expects to find out if they are related to anyone else with another name - just this name (or not). In the case of the ones related to the illegitimate side they are pleased because they now have another surname to research as well!

                                      Anne

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Anne

                                        Yes, I understand that. But from the persepective of the person having the test done (any DNA test) they might get more productive results if the testing was across all sunrames - like Ancestry do.

                                        It does all of course depend on what you are hoping to find out. If you go for one name testing then it is a yes or no situation.

                                        Of course, all the people who fit into the Y-Bloggs group have a common ancestor - but he wasn't necessarily a Bloggs!

                                        OC

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