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Did they feel guilty?

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  • Did they feel guilty?

    I was having a look through the 19th century British newspaper collection today for any information regarding a witness to a signature on a will.

    I found there were several instances of men being arrested for theft of his goods or breaking and entering his property. In the breaking and entering case, the man's death was recorded while in custody awaiting trial. In another, the man had stolen a pair of sheets and was transported for life in 1835.

    It seems that the victim, a retired "respectable farmer", was comfortably off and had no family, so the theft of a pair of sheets was unlikely to have caused him much inconvenience.

    As transportation was an accepted method of punishment and criminals would have known the risks, I wondered whether the average man, such as my witness above, felt any guilt when such a harsh punishment resulted from his complaint.
    Gillian
    User page: http://www.familytreeforum.com/wiki/...ustGillian-117

  • #2
    Gillian

    First of all, a pair of sheets was probably much more expensive in those pre-mass production days - and it was obviously worth stealing.

    Secondly, I have a page of the Gloucestershire Gaol Register from 1862 in which one felon was a 13 year old girl who stole a pair of boots. She was sentenced to 2 months hard labour in the House of Correction, and a note says she was in the prison for 10 days a year ago for stealing a dress and that her mother and father were both in jail.
    ~ with love from Little Nell~
    Chowns, Dunt, Emms, Mealing, Purvey & Smoothy

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    • #3
      Nell - I agree Nell that the theft of a pair of sheets then was certainly not the equivalent of the theft of the same item now.

      What I was getting at I suppose was - had the police ever caught the vandals who slashed our car tyres, or broke into our cars and stole tools etc, I probably would have thought they were getting their just desserts when they had been punished in accordance with today's customs by prison, or a fine etc. I was trying to imagine whether, because transportation was a customary punishment in 1835, I would have felt equally comfortable had I been responsible for a criminal's transportation.
      Gillian
      User page: http://www.familytreeforum.com/wiki/...ustGillian-117

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      • #4
        Following on from Nell's reply.....

        One of OH's relatives was murdered, but the man who committed the murder was acquitted because the victim was a prostitute. When this was reported in the newspaper someone else, tried at the same time, was sentenced to death for stealing a pair of boots.

        One of my relatives left roughly £300,000 in 1893. He still bothered to detail who should have what from his personal effects, including various qualities of bedlinen, despite his great wealth.

        So I doubt he would have felt guilty........theft was treated as a very serious crime.

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        • #5
          Merry - I have found the Assize reports absolutely fascinating, not least because there seemed such a huge variation in the degree of severity of punishments.

          The second biggest surprise, totally irrelevant to my posts above, was the number of babies in the 19th century dying of suffocation as a result of sharing a bed with adults.
          Gillian
          User page: http://www.familytreeforum.com/wiki/...ustGillian-117

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          • #6
            JG

            Overlaying was a very common cause of infant death. At best it concealed cot death, at worst it concealed infanticide.

            In genuine cases, alcohol played a large part. However I do remember reading recently of a tragic case where a dad took his new baby downstairs to give his wife a chance to sleep. He fell asleep on the sofa cuddling the baby and when he woke, he had suffocated the baby.

            I suppose transportation for the theft of a handkerchief was better than the previous punishment which was death by hanging!

            OC

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            • #7
              Jane Austen had an aunt who was faced with transportation after being accused of shoplifting.

              I think, as today, a lot would depend on the individual prosecution and judge's attitudes.

              And also there was one rule for the rich and another for the poor. People who stole through need (ie because they were hungry) were seen as criminals.
              ~ with love from Little Nell~
              Chowns, Dunt, Emms, Mealing, Purvey & Smoothy

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              • #8
                OC - I did wonder what sort of percentage of cases might have been infanticide. Suffocation was at least kinder than one I came across today where a newborn girl had had a string tied around her neck and then wrapped around her body before she was thrown into a canal.

                Looking through these old newspapers with so many tragic stories, it is easy to lose perspective.
                Gillian
                User page: http://www.familytreeforum.com/wiki/...ustGillian-117

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                • #9
                  Nell - I didn't know that about Jane Austen's aunt!

                  I was curious about the number of deaths in custody reported too. I wondered how many of those were suicide to avoid either transportation or execution. Oh for enough money to be able to get the certs and satisfy my curiosity!
                  Gillian
                  User page: http://www.familytreeforum.com/wiki/...ustGillian-117

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                  • #10
                    "Whilst in Bath in 1799, Mrs Leigh-Perrot was accused of the theft of a piece of lace valued at £1, a felony punishable by death or transportation. She was imprisoned in the house of the gaoler of llchester gaol throughout the winter, but was finally acquitted at Taunton in 18oo. It was revealed as a blackmail plot, but the threat of the punishment was very real. Family tradition saysthat Mr Leigh-Perrot was prepared to sell up everything to accompany her to Australia if she was found guilty."

                    source: Berks FHS Family Historian) Dec 2000 The Austen Connection
                    ~ with love from Little Nell~
                    Chowns, Dunt, Emms, Mealing, Purvey & Smoothy

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                    • #11
                      Call me an old cynic, but transportation instead of death was a government scheme to populate the colonies quickly with tied labour, in order to get the wealth out of the new countries at the cheapest possible rate.

                      However, it was the making of many of those who were transported and they led far better lives ultimately than they would have done back here.

                      OC

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                      • #12
                        If only they had transported criminals with agricultural and commercial backgrounds, instead of urban pickpockets, prostitutes and petty thieves, the whole colony of New South Wales would have got off to a better start.

                        In the First Fleet, not one farmer to get the colony's desparately needed food production off to a start - I don't think they started off thinking about populating far away colonies, just to get rid of the criminal class, with nary a thought given as to how they would really survive for longer than the provisions taken with them (or did they even care whether they surivived at all).
                        Diane
                        Sydney Australia
                        Avatar: Reuben Edward Page and Lilly Mary Anne Dawson

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Little Nell View Post
                          "Whilst in Bath in 1799, Mrs Leigh-Perrot was accused of the theft of a piece of lace valued at £1, a felony punishable by death or transportation. She was imprisoned in the house of the gaoler of llchester gaol throughout the winter, but was finally acquitted at Taunton in 18oo. It was revealed as a blackmail plot, but the threat of the punishment was very real. Family tradition saysthat Mr Leigh-Perrot was prepared to sell up everything to accompany her to Australia if she was found guilty."

                          source: Berks FHS Family Historian) Dec 2000 The Austen Connection
                          Thanks Nell! A reminder too of how long suspects sometimes had to wait
                          for trial.

                          Dicole - Reading some of the reports of the life awaiting those first transportees was certainly an eye-opener for me.
                          Gillian
                          User page: http://www.familytreeforum.com/wiki/...ustGillian-117

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by dicole View Post
                            If only they had transported criminals with agricultural and commercial backgrounds, instead of urban pickpockets, prostitutes and petty thieves, the whole colony of New South Wales would have got off to a better start.

                            In the First Fleet, not one farmer to get the colony's desparately needed food production off to a start - I don't think they started off thinking about populating far away colonies, just to get rid of the criminal class, with nary a thought given as to how they would really survive for longer than the provisions taken with them (or did they even care whether they surivived at all).
                            But a few years later several of Sydney's early public buildings were designed by a transportee.
                            Uncle John - Passed away March 2020

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Olde Crone Holden View Post
                              .

                              However, it was the making of many of those who were transported and they led far better lives ultimately than they would have done back here.

                              OC
                              That was certainly the case regarding one of OH.s rellies. She was transported to Australia for 'filching' linen, but went on to do extremely well over there
                              Pam

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                              • #16
                                Originally posted by Uncle John View Post
                                But a few years later several of Sydney's early public buildings were designed by a transportee.
                                Yes, Francis Greenway was transported for forging a document, and designed some beautiful buildings, many of which still stand in Sydney. Pity he made so many enemies before and after he got here.

                                Many others did well too, Simeon Lord, Mary Reiby, many very well documented.

                                Diane
                                Diane
                                Sydney Australia
                                Avatar: Reuben Edward Page and Lilly Mary Anne Dawson

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                                • #17
                                  Transportation was a dreadful punishment - not for the transported ones - but for the family left behnd! My transported ancestor went on to remarry in Tasmania, have a family and presumably, a reasonable life, while his English wife and 2 out of his 3 kids died in the workhouse within a couple of years of his leaving.

                                  But on the subject of punishments (this one was for stealing a pig), his brothers (who were twins - habitual criminals, this family, lol!) had, a year or so earlier, been caught poaching pheasants, during which the gamekeeper was assaulted and badly injured. I would have thought that would have been transportation also, if not hanging, but all they got was a year in goal each!

                                  Funny thing about this though, the gamekeeper was the brother-in-law of one of them! This wasn't mentioned in the newspaper report, or the court case! I can't help but think this was an "inside job" that went wrong and although the fact wasn't made public, must have influenced the case.

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                                  • #18
                                    I receive extracts from a Cornish newspaper from the 1840's and it gives court cases. In one a thief begged the court to transport him rather than send him to Bodmin Gaol.

                                    He was sent to Bodmin!
                                    Daphne

                                    Looking for Northey, Goodfellow, Jobes, Heal, Lilburn, Curry, Gay, Carpenter, Johns, Harris, Vigus from Cornwall, Somerset, Durham, Northumberland, Cumberland, USA, Australia.

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