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Are my Croppers Coppers?

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  • Are my Croppers Coppers?

    I am researching Richard Cropper c.1822 Dublin, Ireland

    Here in 1871 Class: RG10; Piece: 181; Folio: 19; Page: 30;

    I believe this is the family, transribed as Copper, in 1861 Class: RG9; Piece: 86; Folio: 34; Page: 14....

    Wife Martha dies 1865, Richard remarries in 1877 - (1881 Class: RG11; Piece: 931; Folio: 5; Page: 4) I also have him in 1891

    ...but I cannot find the four older boys (Henry, Charles, Samuel and Robert)on any previous or subsequent census

    Did Richard marry Martha in 1853, thus these older boys are from another marriage/relationship?

  • #2
    Why do you think Richard married in 1853? Have you looked for him pre-1861?
    ~ with love from Little Nell~
    Chowns, Dunt, Emms, Mealing, Purvey & Smoothy

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    • #3
      Although the boys are all born Marylebone according to 1861 census, I can't see them in the birth indexes.
      ~ with love from Little Nell~
      Chowns, Dunt, Emms, Mealing, Purvey & Smoothy

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Little Nell View Post
        Why do you think Richard married in 1853? Have you looked for him pre-1861?
        Martha was born c.1832 > likeliest dates for marriage 1848 onwards

        there is a possible marriage in Newington 1853, have tried to back check but cannot find Higham Ambrose, the other name on list, on census

        Daughter Martha born c.1854/5

        Unable to find Richard on '51

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        • #5
          Where does Higham Ambrose come into it? And how can you be sure Richard Cropper who possibly marries a Martha in 1853 are the same Richard and Martha that you have on censuses?
          ~ with love from Little Nell~
          Chowns, Dunt, Emms, Mealing, Purvey & Smoothy

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          • #6
            Have you looked for Richard's children in 1851 - they should be about if born Marylebone. I'm wondering if they were actually born in Ireland and just said they were born here, either by an error on someone's part or because they wanted to pretend to be English?
            ~ with love from Little Nell~
            Chowns, Dunt, Emms, Mealing, Purvey & Smoothy

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            • #7
              There's a Richard Cropper born Ireland aged 15 in 1841:
              HO107; Piece 1084; Book: 2; Civil Parish: St George The Martyr; County: Surrey; Enumeration District: 4; Folio: 35; Page: 5; Line: 13; GSU roll: 474668.

              His age given 15, if it was rounded down 5 years, would mean he was actually 19 (and therefore born abt 1822). This would be before his marriage to Henry's mother (whoever she was).
              ~ with love from Little Nell~
              Chowns, Dunt, Emms, Mealing, Purvey & Smoothy

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              • #8
                My instinct though, is that since you can't find a previous marriage for Richard or the births of any of the earlier children, or find them in 1851 that perhaps they were not registered or not registered with that surname.

                Apart from Copper, I can only think they might be recorded as Cooper, but that is such a common name.

                A search for Henry born 1845 +/- 2 years in Marylebone with father Richard hasn't shown any likely results for 1851.

                Nor has a search of 1851 for any Richards born Ireland living in Marylebone.
                ~ with love from Little Nell~
                Chowns, Dunt, Emms, Mealing, Purvey & Smoothy

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Little Nell View Post
                  Where does Higham Ambrose come into it? And how can you be sure Richard Cropper who possibly marries a Martha in 1853 are the same Richard and Martha that you have on censuses?

                  I am not sure they are the same, but in order to dismiss them, I try to confirm whether Martha marries Richard Cropper or Higham Ambrose (1853). I want to cover all avenues before purchasing certs.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Little Nell View Post
                    Have you looked for Richard's children in 1851 - they should be about if born Marylebone. I'm wondering if they were actually born in Ireland and just said they were born here, either by an error on someone's part or because they wanted to pretend to be English?
                    I too thought they may have been Irish born.. or possibly step-children, I guess I have to order a birth cert for Martha, Richard or William now.
                    Last edited by Kiltmon; 21-03-08, 15:25.

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                    • #11
                      I think you will find that the groom is Ambrose Higham, not Higham Ambrose, and the other bride is Ann Elizabeth Bean.

                      I can't find Ambrose at all on 1861 census though and am beginning to wonder if he and your Richard are just having a big laugh at our expense!
                      ~ with love from Little Nell~
                      Chowns, Dunt, Emms, Mealing, Purvey & Smoothy

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        HI


                        I know it doesn't help find your Richard C(r)opper in the early census but what do you think of this for some of the children in the early census


                        I though Martha Cropper nee ?? was born 1821 not 1832?

                        1851 shows a Henry Williams 5* bn Marylebone and Charles Williams 4* bn Marylebone living with William and Martha DICKENSON shown as being grandchildren.


                        on FreeBMD there is a marriage of a Frederick Williams to a Martha DICKINSON in Dec quarter 1845 in Marylebone which would tie in with the ages of the two boys in the 1851 with grandparents as shown above


                        ON IGI there is a Christening record of a Martha DICKENSON born to a William and Margaret in 1821



                        So would you agree?
                        Last edited by WendyP; 21-03-08, 16:36.
                        WendyP

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                        • #13
                          It's a good job you can count:D, 4 generations of Richard Cropper with Louisa's and Martha's, I have been over this so many times I was getting confused with my own thoughts,

                          There are enough Frederick Williams' deaths in the period to support your theory, the marriage cert would show Martha as a widow and her maiden name?

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                          • #14
                            Well done!
                            ~ with love from Little Nell~
                            Chowns, Dunt, Emms, Mealing, Purvey & Smoothy

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Certificate arrived today.............

                              14th October 1856

                              Richard Cropper

                              father - Richard Cropper
                              mother - Martha Cropper late Williams formerly Dickenson

                              10/10 WendyP .... :D:D:D

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