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  • baptisms

    what is the differnence between the natural child of (mothers name only)
    and
    the illegitamate child of (mothers name only)???

    Is it that the father is still around for the natural one?

  • #2
    Nothing. Natural is just a term for illegitimate - a kinder term than baseborn, or bast*rd. I even have one child (on a census) called a "love-child" which is kindest of all.
    ~ with love from Little Nell~
    Chowns, Dunt, Emms, Mealing, Purvey & Smoothy

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    • #3
      One of "my" Vicars had this all off to a nice and finely-tuned art.

      Bastard was the lowest of the low - some peasant girl who didn't know the name of the father.

      Baseborn - the couple were local and would probably get married in due course.

      Love child - the result of a union between a higher born (important) local who might or might not get huffy if his offspring was called a bastard, and a lower class female of the innocent variety (taken down by the Lord of the Manor, you know the story)

      Natural child - child of a locally important man who cheerfully admitted he was the father and would see both mother and child alright - and probably insert the child into his own household at some point. Again, the vicar would not want to cause offence by calling the child a bastard.

      Bastard had a strict legal meaning - it meant that this child cannot inherit anything by law. It was not a pejorative term as such although it is now of course.

      The term Natural child got round this nicely - many natural children did go on to inherit at least something from their natural fathers and if they became a favourite first born, could actually inherit the lot!

      OC

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      • #4
        That's interesting OC. I have two sisters, in the 1760s having illegitimate babies, one has "bastard" son & the other shows nothing at all, just the mother's name
        The 2nd sister's son was baptised with the same surname as the mother, yet when he married appears with an alias. I wonder if this because of the father? What do you think?


        Joanie

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        • #5
          I read an article recently about the derivation of the word "bastard" - I think it was something to do with being born on a saddle - i.e. to some one travelling around with no stable home. (Perhaps I'd better go and have another look to see what it really said!)

          Christine
          Researching: BENNETT (Leics/Birmingham-ish) - incl. Leonard BENNETT in Detroit & Florida ; WARR/WOR, STRATFORD & GARDNER/GARNAR (Oxon); CHRISTMAS, RUSSELL, PAFOOT/PAFFORD (Hants); BIGWOOD, HAYLER/HAILOR (Sussex); LANCASTER (Beds, Berks, Wilts) - plus - COCKS (Spitalfields, Liverpool, Plymouth); RUSE/ROWSE, TREMEER, WADLIN(G)/WADLETON (Devonport, E Cornwall); GOULD (S Devon); CHAPMAN, HALL/HOLE, HORN (N Devon); BARRON, SCANTLEBURY (Mevagissey)...

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          • #6
            Oooh, yes Christine, my dictionary gives the derivation as obscure but possibly from the old french for packsaddle!

            Somewhere I have a booklet which explains at great length the seven degrees of illegitimacy, I'll see if I can find it.

            One lovely old Vicar on the Isle of Man never wrote any of the above - for father's name he wrote "Known unto God" which I thought was lovely - my brother merely thought it was lucky he didn't write "God knows" lol.

            Joan

            Yes, I would think an alias is an indication of his real father's name - have you looked for a bastardy order? (But could be his mother's subsequent married name of course)

            OC

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            • #7
              Hi OC

              No, no Bastardy order, & she never married. His first 5 children were known by his alias name, then he reverted to mother's name for 2nd marriage after 1st wife died, & all children from then were same name as his original (mother's name).


              Joanie

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              • #8
                Joan

                This happens a lot in my family too and I have this vision of someone at the funeral saying "He wasn't your dad, you know", so they go to some pains to find out what name they were born in and start using that. Very annoying.

                OC

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                • #9
                  that explains it quite nicely. Just wondered as some of the entrants were on the same page. A bit discriminatory for this day and age.

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                  • #10
                    My grandma's family of Tylers came from a small number of villages in north Berkshire but I have found baptism entries over a period of about 200 years in the names of Tyler/Tiler alias Bennet/Benet or Bennet/Benet alias Tyler/Tiler, so not just one case of illegitimacy. I originally thought it may be a case of a wife's family being wealthier/owning land and it was done for inheritance purposes but still can't understand why they kept switching the names around over several generations finally settling for Tyler in the early 1800s.
                    :D Carolyn

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                    • #11
                      I think the naming thing is fascinating too. I have 2 sisters born 1813 & 1818 who had 5 illegitimate children between them (and apparently five different fathers!). In the baptism records, four of them have been recorded with no father, though all the children have a second name which is almost certainly the father's surname. At this period, the vicar merely said "single woman", with no further comment, for all illegitimate births.
                      Three of these children died in infancy & are buried under their mother's surname. I have been unable to trace a fourth, who is on the 1841 census with his mother's surname but subsequently disappears... the family story is that he was adopted by Lord Armstrong, but I haven't been able to get to the bottom of that yet. (I doubt Lord Armstrong was his father)

                      3 of these births were pre-1837. For the one born 1839, his birth registration has just the one first name & his mother's surname, but the baptism shows a second name which is clearly the father's surname.

                      The fifth, born 1842 but apparently not registered, was named Charles Robert Spearman Common in the baptism register & was known by his father's surname - Spearman - all his life. His father died when he was 5. As his mother registered his father's death, it looks like they were living together, but never got round to legalising it. He inherited quite a lot of property under his grandfather's Will, so the family were obviously quite happy with the situation.
                      Last edited by Vicky the Viking; 21-03-08, 13:40. Reason: correction
                      Vicky

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                      • #12
                        extract from a Will I have from 1834.

                        At the time of his death, this chap had 8 legitimate daughters, who were granted equal shares of his estate, valued at £1500.


                        "And to my natural son John, I bequeath to him 50 pounds with my watch, gun, and wearing apparel"


                        Unfortunately I haven't yet found out who the aforementioned John's mother was.
                        Vicky

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                        • #13
                          Yes, it does seem discriminatory to our eyes, but it wasn't really. Don't forget, Parish Records were not intended to be seen by the general public, they were records kept for and by the church.

                          These shorthand ways of describing situations would be handy for a new Vicar and would give clues as to who he could go and bully into marriage, who he could condemn to eternal damnation and who he had better make no remark at all if he wanted to keep his job.

                          Vicky

                          I too have several Wills which mention "my natural child".

                          OC

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