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  • Certification of death

    When somebody dies, the doctor issues a certificate, which is then given to the Registrar, who issues the death cert, right? So the doctor's signature doesn't actually appear on the death cert.

    I was wondering if the certificate issued by the doctor is actually filed away somewhere accessible, e.g. the Register Office.

    I've just found my great-great-granny Amelia involved in a very nasty case of conspiracy to cover up infanticide by issuing a false death certificate, and the person who drew up the certificate was apparently Amelia.

    I believe she was told the child was stillborn, and arranged for a midwife to sign the certificate, but she must have realised there was something dodgy going on if a false certificate was needed. As I understand it, midwives could issue a cert in the case of a stillbirth (this was in 1864), and I've found the death registration on FreeBMD, but I wondered if the midwife's certificate would still be available anywhere.

    As it turned out, the two women accused of the murder were acquitted through lack of evidence (the post mortem was inconclusive), and Amelia doesn't seem to have been charged with anything; she was just a witness at the trial.
    Last edited by Mary from Italy; 16-03-08, 17:31.

  • #2
    I don't think so, I have a few doctor's certs which were in family papers. I think the person they were issued to keeps them.

    Stillbirths are not registered as deaths, they are registered on a separate stillbirth register - but it was only started 1927 and is closed unless you are the parent or sibling of the stillborn child.

    Prior to 1927 the only way to find a stillbirth is possibly in the burial registers.
    ~ with love from Little Nell~
    Chowns, Dunt, Emms, Mealing, Purvey & Smoothy

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    • #3
      I am not trying to be insensitive but does anyone know why stillborn children are registered?
      Last edited by Pippa Doll; 16-03-08, 17:51.
      Click here to order your BMD certificates for England and Wales for only £9.25 General Register Office

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      Jacob Sudders born in Prussia c.1775 married Alice Pidgeon in 1800 in Gorelston. Do you know where Jacob was born?

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      • #4
        I assume the idea is to prevent infanticide, but I'm not really sure.

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        • #5
          When I registered my mother's death, I was given the doctor's certificate ( which showed her cause of death as chest infection - whilst in the days preceding her death I was assured by all the nursing staff that she did not have a chest infection - and I don't believe she did)

          I had to take the doctor's certificate to the Registrar, who kept it, but said it wouldn't suffice as it was only signed by a locum!!! - although he issued the death certificate in any event, and as I recall, we had to arrange for my mother's own GP to issue a fresh docor's certificate to submit to the registrar direct.

          Not sure this is any help, Mary, but it all seemed fairly bizarre at the time!
          Last edited by Muggins in Sussex; 16-03-08, 18:02.
          Joan died in July 2020.

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          • #6
            Thanks, Nell - unfortunately the newspaper report's a bit vague, so I don't know exactly what happened. There's a birth under the name of "Female Gordon" on FreeBMD in the September quarter of 1864 which exactly matches the place, surname and date in question, so at some stage the child's death was presumably registered as a death, not a stillbirth (it was certainly born alive, and was originally said to have lived for 3 weeks). Maybe the death was registered after the trial and post mortem; the post mortem was held on 30th August 1864, and the trial on 21st December.

            Amelia (who was just a neighbour) apparently arranged things with a bent midwife, drew up the certificate herself, took the little coffin to the cemetery and handed over the certificate to the cemetery clerk. She got 1/6d for her trouble.
            Last edited by Mary from Italy; 17-03-08, 03:41.

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            • #7
              Registering Stillbirths
              Stillbirth registration was introduced on 1 July 1927 to help protect infant life, provide a valuable source of statistical information and to give parents the opportunity to have their child officially acknowledged. A stillborn child is a child born after the 24th week of pregnancy who did not breathe or show any other signs of life. When a child is stillborn the midwife or doctor will issue a medical certificate of stillbirth which will be used to register the stillbirth.



              When stillbirth registration was introduced the the age limit was the end of the 28th week of pregnancy, not the 24th (as it is now). This is a relatively recent change following the greatly increased survival rates of premature babies.



              source: GENUKI: Civil Registration, LIN
              ~ with love from Little Nell~
              Chowns, Dunt, Emms, Mealing, Purvey & Smoothy

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              • #8
                Thanks, Muggins - yes, I remember reading somewhere that it's supposed to be the patient's usual doctor who signs the cert. I registered both my parents' deaths with my sister, but I don't remember what happened to the certs issued by the hospital - I think the Registrar kept them.

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                • #9
                  Mary

                  If the baby's death was registered, then it wasn't stillborn. The post-mortem would have been to find cause of death and I'm fairly sure that you cannot register a death until the cause has been ascertained.

                  What was the cause given and why was there a belief that some skulduggery was involved?
                  ~ with love from Little Nell~
                  Chowns, Dunt, Emms, Mealing, Purvey & Smoothy

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                  • #10
                    According to the evidence given at the murder trial, the little girl was born alive; a midwife attended, but the grandmother told her not to come back, because she didn't want people to realise her unmarried daughter's shame. The midwife said it was her practice to check up on mother and child, but when she went back the next day, granny said the mum had gone back to work, and the baby had been sent to a wetnurse in the country.

                    Some time later, granny saw the midwife again, and offered her 5 shillings to say the baby was stillborn. The midwife refused.

                    3 weeks after the birth the granny turned up at Amelia's neighbour's house, saying she had a problem, because she had a baby to bury, born the previous day. The neighbour said she'd need a cert, and she should talk to Amelia, who'd recently had a stillborn baby and would know the procedure.

                    Amelia went to another midwife on the granny's request, and said in her evidence that when she went home, she made out a certificate according to what that midwife had told her. She doesn't actually say who signed the cert. She accompanied granny to the cemetery, but it was Amelia who went in with the coffin and handed over the cert.

                    The pathologist said that death was equally consistent with natural causes or deliberate suffocation; in view of the doubt, the judge instructed the jury to find the baby's mother and grandmother not guilty.

                    I think I shall have to get the death cert to see what it says.

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                    • #11
                      I would have to get the certificate - I'm so nosey it would be worth the 7 quid! :o

                      Anne

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                      • #12
                        I would have to get the certificate - I'm so nosey it would be worth the 7 quid!
                        Yes, my feeling too :-)

                        This is the dysfunctional side of the family; I've found Amelia's son (my great-grandfather) getting sent down for 3 months for stealing a piece of meat at the market (he was a butcher...).

                        He then emigrated to Australia with his wife, where one of their children died in an orphanage, and according to family rumour the other three (including my grandmother) were put in care voluntarily by the parents.

                        Arthur and his wife Lydia then split up, and both remarried bigamously, at least once. At least one of his wife's children by her second husband ended up in care, and another burned to death when he was five.

                        Arthur and Lydia both lived to a ripe old age.
                        Last edited by Mary from Italy; 16-03-08, 20:31.

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                        • #13
                          Hm. Do you really mean granny turned up 3 weeks after birth and told Amelia she had a baby born the previous day or died the previous day?

                          I am wondering why they thought the baby had been murdered - if the baby was actually buried, who caused it to be dug up and have a post-mortem?


                          Actually I would have thought deliberate suffocation would be quite different from normal causes myself, but what do I know?

                          I wonder if the baby was sent to a wetnurse or if that was just a tale to get rid of the midwife?

                          Intriguing.
                          ~ with love from Little Nell~
                          Chowns, Dunt, Emms, Mealing, Purvey & Smoothy

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                          • #14
                            Where was this baby born?
                            ~ with love from Little Nell~
                            Chowns, Dunt, Emms, Mealing, Purvey & Smoothy

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                            • #15
                              The baby was born to Ann Gordon aged 20 at Horton, near Bradford. I've found her and her widowed mother Mary on the census, and the death I found for "Female Gordon" is registered in Bradford.
                              The neighbour they went to originally was Grace Stead, who lived just a few doors away from Amelia in Otley Road, Bradford.

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                              • #16
                                I wonder....it was not necessary to have a Doctors Certificate of death in 1864, in order to bury a body, nor was it necessary to register the death.

                                Sounds like a burial club scam to me. You needed a birth and death cert before they would pay out - a stillborn baby wouldn't have attracted a payout because such babies do not get a funeral service etc. - never lived, so never died.

                                Which makes it all a bit odd - infanticide perhaps, coupled with greed.

                                (The Registrar kept my father's medical certificate of death from the hospital).

                                OC

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                                • #17
                                  I thought it was the birth cert you'd found. A 3 week old baby would surely have been given a name?

                                  Its a sad fact that this baby doesn't seem to have been wanted and that its grandmother may have thought murder less shocking than illegitimacy.
                                  ~ with love from Little Nell~
                                  Chowns, Dunt, Emms, Mealing, Purvey & Smoothy

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                                  • #18
                                    One interesting thing that came out at the trial - although as I understand it, registration wasn't compulsory then, the Registrar called round to the Gordons' house in person to enquire about the birth. He wasn't satisfied with what they told him, and summoned them to his office with the other witnesses, and they eventually admitted that the baby had been born alive.

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                                    • #19
                                      Originally posted by Muggins in Sussex View Post
                                      When I registered my mother's death, I was given the doctor's certificate ( which showed her cause of death as chest infection - whilst in the days preceding her death I was assured by all the nursing staff that she did not have a chest infection - and I don't believe she did)
                                      If it's any consolation, I've been assured that pneumonia is often a cause of death when someone is bedridden for any length of time and can't inflate their lungs fully.
                                      Uncle John - Passed away March 2020

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                                      • #20
                                        Originally posted by Little Nell View Post
                                        I thought it was the birth cert you'd found. A 3 week old baby would surely have been given a name?
                                        No, I've only found the death on FreeBMD - at least I assume it's the right baby. I can't find a matching birth for an unnamed baby, and I don't suppose they had it baptised.

                                        Its a sad fact that this baby doesn't seem to have been wanted and that its grandmother may have thought murder less shocking than illegitimacy.
                                        Yes, horrifying. The grandmother says the baby lived for three weeks, but I don't think it did; I suspect they smothered it as soon as the midwife left, and then dithered for 3 weeks wondering what to do with the body. The pathologist reckoned that the baby had lived no longer than 3 days, maybe less, and said there was no sign that it had been fed.

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