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Where are William's wives?

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  • Where are William's wives?

    William Robinson Lishman was born 1793 at Staveley in Cartmel, Lancashire (according to a cousin - haven't found evidence yet). I do have his parents' marriage there in 1786 from a transcription of Cartmel Priory records.

    In 1823 he married Mary Julia Dyer in Gosforth, Newcastle upon Tyne (IGI Batch M037233). They had 3 children (not found in parish records but identified from censuses):

    William Shevill Lishman b. 1824, died 1886 Newcastle (in censuses 1851 to 1881).
    Edward Hudson Lishman b. 1826, died 1883 Tynemouth (in censuses 1851 to 1881). he was the harbourmaster at Tynemouth.
    Mary Julia Lishman b. 1829, died 1903 Gateshead. She was a spinster and a teacher. I have her in every census from 1861 to 1901, occasionally with a nephew or neice.

    I can't find a death for Mary Julia nee Dyer, but it could have been pre-1837.

    William Robinson Lishman marries again to Isabell Ridley in q4 1839 in Newcastle (found in GRO and Newcastle marriage indexes).

    They have one son, John James Lishman in 1841 (died 1906). He's in every census from 1851 to 1901. He is my great-grandfather.

    My main puzzle is that I can't find Isabell in any census. Though William Robinson Lishman is "married" in 1851 (HO107/2402/374/16) and in 1861 (RG9/3831/39/4) but with no wife. In each case he has one or more of the above children with him.

    I would appreciate any nuggets of new information. The one good thing is that they mostly chose easily-identified names for children.
    Uncle John - Passed away March 2020

  • #2
    Class: HO107; Piece: 2405; Folio: 172; Page: 52; GSU roll: 87083.

    Have a look at this, please, Isabella living with a sister (just in case the age wrong).


    Looking again, probably not, sorry.
    Last edited by Joy Dean; 10-03-08, 20:34.
    Joy

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    • #3
      Or, for some unknown reason -
      Class: HO107; Piece: 2404; Folio: 158; Page: 40; GSU roll: 87082.
      Joy

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      • #4
        Hi Joy. I can't fit either of your offerings into my tree. But thanks very much for looking. I might have to send for John James's birth cert. just to double-check his parentage.
        Uncle John - Passed away March 2020

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        • #5
          Have you examined the various possible deaths for Isabel(la) Lishman?

          This one is bothering me as I can't easily see her in 1871 (though she could have had a different name then I suppose, if she is someone else!)

          Name: Isabella Lishman
          Estimated Birth Year: abt 1815
          Year of Registration: 1879
          Quarter of Registration: Apr-May-Jun
          Age at Death: 64
          District: Newcastle Upon Tyne
          County: Northumberland, Tyne and Wear
          Volume: 10b
          Page: 60

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          • #6
            Maybe you need the 1841 birth cert and the 1839 marriage cert?!

            Isabella is going to have to be significantly younger than her husband in order to have had a child in 1841. She might well have been married before, so her maiden name might be another clue etc etc etc

            Comment


            • #7
              I think you've hit the nail on the head, Merry. I came to the same conclusion re. certs. and Isabell(a)'s age while washing up just now. Posting this query has made me realise how sparse my documentation was.
              Uncle John - Passed away March 2020

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              • #8
                UJ.

                I had a look at this last night, but have just re-read your post. You say you haven't got Isabell on ANY census, but presumably you have her on the 1841, age 30, with William age 40.
                ~ Louise ~

                Researching Dalzell, Highmore & Sumpton in Cumbria, also Braidford & Chevalier

                Comment


                • #9
                  No I had missed that one. Thanks very much. Isabell(a) seems to vanish after her son's birth until she dies in 1879 (another cert. perhaps to check husband's name).
                  Uncle John - Passed away March 2020

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Meridian Line View Post
                    UJ.

                    I had a look at this last night, but have just re-read your post. You say you haven't got Isabell on ANY census, but presumably you have her on the 1841, age 30, with William age 40.
                    If that's the same one I looked at (he was a clerk, I think) there were no children with them......... has anyone found his first wife's children in 1841?

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Merry Monty Montgomery View Post
                      If that's the same one I looked at (he was a clerk, I think) there were no children with them......... has anyone found his first wife's children in 1841?
                      I've only found them from 1861 (or in one case 1851).

                      I've tried Sishman, just in case, and got one mistranscribed Lishman, not one of mine.
                      Uncle John - Passed away March 2020

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                      • #12
                        UJ,

                        found Mary Julia in 41 & 51, with her aunt , Margaret Lishman

                        41;
                        Westgate, St john
                        Mgt Lishman 40
                        Mary Lishman 13

                        51;
                        3 Percy St, Tynemouth
                        Mgt Lishman 60 (?) unmar Annuitant b Cartmel, Lancs
                        Mary Julia 22 " "

                        1841;
                        No 8 Westgate
                        Jane Snowball 35 Ind
                        William Lishman 40 clerk
                        Isabell " 30
                        servant

                        In 1851 at Westgate there is a married Isabell Lishman age 32, b N/cle , with 86 year old Elizabeth Robson , a pauper.
                        Could this be your Isabell...age is out a bit, but Elizabeth could be her grandmother, she could be staying there to look after her.
                        ~ Louise ~

                        Researching Dalzell, Highmore & Sumpton in Cumbria, also Braidford & Chevalier

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Meridian Line View Post
                          In 1851 at Westgate there is a married Isabell Lishman age 32, b N/cle , with 86 year old Elizabeth Robson , a pauper.
                          Could this be your Isabell...age is out a bit, but Elizabeth could be her grandmother, she could be staying there to look after her.
                          Louise, that's the one Joy posted earlier:

                          Originally posted by Joy Dean View Post
                          Or, for some unknown reason -
                          Class: HO107; Piece: 2404; Folio: 158; Page: 40; GSU roll: 87082.
                          and UJ rejected:

                          Originally posted by Uncle John View Post
                          Hi Joy. I can't fit either of your offerings into my tree. But thanks very much for looking.
                          Like you, I think that is very likely to be the right Isabell(a), so if we gang up on UJ we might be able to change his mind!!

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Meridian Line View Post
                            found Mary Julia in 41 & 51, with her aunt , Margaret Lishman
                            41;
                            Westgate, St john
                            Mgt Lishman 40
                            Mary Lishman 13
                            Two problems: If this is her Auntie Margaret that I found her with in 1861 and you've found in 1851, Margaret's age has been rounded down a full 10 years and she's shown born in County instead of out.

                            51;
                            3 Percy St, Tynemouth
                            Mgt Lishman 60 (?) unmar Annuitant b Cartmel, Lancs
                            Mary Julia 22 " "
                            Highly likely but I can't find it. What's the ref. please?

                            1841;
                            No 8 Westgate
                            Jane Snowball 35 Ind
                            William Lishman 40 clerk
                            Isabell " 30
                            servant
                            Found by Joy and I'll buy it.


                            In 1851 at Westgate there is a married Isabell Lishman age 32, b N/cle , with 86 year old Elizabeth Robson , a pauper.
                            Could this be your Isabell...age is out a bit, but Elizabeth could be her grandmother, she could be staying there to look after her.
                            I haven't any Robsons in my tree. Isabell(a)'s husband was a bank cashier, so I don't know whether he'd have the funds to support his wife and an elderly pauper.

                            Ever felt you were being force-fed??
                            Uncle John - Passed away March 2020

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Here's the 1851 census ref:

                              HO107; Piece: 2410; Folio: 375; Page: 8

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                UJ,

                                51; Percy st....they're transcribed as Lithman (if i remember correctly)..I've corrected it.
                                ~ Louise ~

                                Researching Dalzell, Highmore & Sumpton in Cumbria, also Braidford & Chevalier

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Merry: Ah but you didn't tell me they had a lithp. (Transcribed Lithman, which is a spelling I hadn't tried!)

                                  Thanks Louise, I've lost count of the number of corrections I've done in the last few days.
                                  Uncle John - Passed away March 2020

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    I think with the 41, you can't ignore the mega co-incidence of Margaret & Mary living together in the same area of N/cle as William. Its got to be them...despite the age/ not in county error.

                                    I wonder if William S & Edward H are at school or sea. They seem to be well to do, & well educated in later census, which would indicate possibly a boarding school...I've looked very hard for them but with no success. The other option is Scotland, given the (relatively) close proximity.
                                    Have you found any Shevill/Hudson relatives they could be staying with?
                                    ~ Louise ~

                                    Researching Dalzell, Highmore & Sumpton in Cumbria, also Braidford & Chevalier

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Originally posted by Merry Monty Montgomery View Post
                                      Have you examined the various possible deaths for Isabel(la) Lishman?

                                      This one is bothering me as I can't easily see her in 1871 (though she could have had a different name then I suppose, if she is someone else!)

                                      Name: Isabella Lishman
                                      Estimated Birth Year: abt 1815
                                      Year of Registration: 1879
                                      Quarter of Registration: Apr-May-Jun
                                      Age at Death: 64
                                      District: Newcastle Upon Tyne
                                      County: Northumberland, Tyne and Wear
                                      Volume: 10b
                                      Page: 60
                                      Merry,
                                      I also think this could be a possible for Isabell , & age would fit ( approx)with the Isabell in the 51 looking after Elizabeth Robson...but where is this one is , in 61 & 71?
                                      ~ Louise ~

                                      Researching Dalzell, Highmore & Sumpton in Cumbria, also Braidford & Chevalier

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Originally posted by Meridian Line View Post
                                        I think with the 41, you can't ignore the mega co-incidence of Margaret & Mary living together in the same area of N/cle as William. Its got to be them...despite the age/ not in county error.

                                        I wonder if William S & Edward H are at school or sea. They seem to be well to do, & well educated in later census, which would indicate possibly a boarding school...I've looked very hard for them but with no success. The other option is Scotland, given the (relatively) close proximity.
                                        Have you found any Shevill/Hudson relatives they could be staying with?
                                        I tend to agree about the 1841. I've now found a likely death for Auntie Margaret in q4 1861 (no age but the only one in Newcastle in the period 61-71).

                                        Shevill is the maiden name of their maternal grandmother. All I've found is her marriage to Edward Dyer (IGI Batch M016101).

                                        Hudson is the maiden name of their paternal grandmother. Once again, all I have is her marriage to Rev. William Lishman (from a microfiche of Cartmel Priory transcripts).

                                        At sea is a possibility. One went on to be harbourmaster at Tynemouth and the other became a ship-broker and ended up in a very posh-sounding house in Corbridge.
                                        Uncle John - Passed away March 2020

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