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Occupation question: Chain Lighterman

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  • Occupation question: Chain Lighterman

    Hello

    I am well aware ( being the descendent of 8 generations of them ) what a lighterman is. What I have not come across is a reliable explanation as to what a chain lighterman was. Kind anynody enlighten me?
    James

  • #2
    Some Ferries were pulled backwards and forwards across the River or Harbourmouth by a chain which normally rested on the riverbed. Maybe he worked on one of those?
    Grampa Jim passed away September 2011

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    • #3
      Can't see it myself Grampa Jim. he'd have been described as a waterman were that to be the case. A lighterman was concerned with cargo, not people.
      Thanks for the idea though!
      J

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      • #4
        To be honest, James, I would have thought that if anybody would know the answer it would be you! Googling "chain lighterman" only finds a few matches and quite a few of them look like you asking the question in various places...

        Presumably you have already seen this:
        The Proceedings of the Old Bailey, London 1674 to 1834

        I don't know if anything in there gives a clue as to what he did - or is that the very document that started you on your quest in the first place?
        KiteRunner

        Every five years or so I look back on my life and I have a good... laugh"
        (Indigo Girls, "Watershed")

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        • #5
          Another match found on google suggests that it means "sea pilot" but they don't seem to say where they got this definition from.
          KiteRunner

          Every five years or so I look back on my life and I have a good... laugh"
          (Indigo Girls, "Watershed")

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          • #6
            Pure guesswork, but I've seen the modern day rubbish barges linked one behind another - could it refer to a one vessel towing another?

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            • #7
              Thank you Kite Runner, I'm flattered!
              The fact that I don't know the answer to this, despite 8 years of in depth research into the subject, shows what an elusive subject this is.
              I've talked to several old lightermen, read every book ever published, and examined the archives in detail, and there is nary a mention.
              J

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              • #8
                Jill

                Nice theory, but for one factor. Watermen & lightermen used rope for towing, it being both much cheaper, and far more readily available.
                J

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                • #9
                  Maybe a Waterman took only passengers, but could a Lighterman carry horses and wagon loads of goods on a ferry? Particularly downstream where there are no Bridges. So a chain ferry is still a possibility.
                  Grampa Jim passed away September 2011

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                  • #10
                    Another occupation described at "lighterman" pertained to lamp lighters.
                    Len of the Chilterns passed away July 2021

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                    • #11
                      Other than knowing what a lighterman is from Heather PT (!) I don't know much (anything?) about this......but is there a clue here?

                      In 1881 there are well over 5,000 lightermen on the census, but well less than a dozen chain lightermen. One family has several though, and the other members of the same family have another occupation which is only represented in one other case in 1881.......that is quay lighterman.

                      RG11; Piece: 458; Folio: 96; Page: 20 name Gowans

                      I we knew what a quay lighterman was, would that help? (I would have thought it was the equiv of a stevedore, which doesn't seem to help much......)
                      Last edited by Merry Monty Montgomery; 29-02-08, 22:44.

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                      • #12
                        If you look up "chain lighterman" on Google Book Search there are a couple of matches from the 1840's which say "who is a chain lighterman, accustomed to place chains round sunken vessels". Interesting?

                        P.S. Plus a match for "chain lightermen" which says "Chain Lightermen attempting to raise up any mooring chain between half-flood and half-ebb, or keep such chain suspended by the lighters beyond half-flood, ..."
                        KiteRunner

                        Every five years or so I look back on my life and I have a good... laugh"
                        (Indigo Girls, "Watershed")

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Well it sounds important!

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                          • #14
                            So it looks as though they put chains around sunken vessels and then used the chains to pull them up? That sound possible?
                            KiteRunner

                            Every five years or so I look back on my life and I have a good... laugh"
                            (Indigo Girls, "Watershed")

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Would that keep you in permanent employ though? Sounds like it may have been a very specialised job if there were only a few on the 1881 so maybe they were salvage lightermen?

                              Hello James, lovely to see you here (Merry, James is the oracle of all things watermen)

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                              • #16
                                I think you're onto something there KiteRunner. Certainly the most plausible explanation it seems to me.
                                Thank you everyone for your help
                                J

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                                • #17
                                  Back to Basics

                                  Well, quite a debate!

                                  As ever in these matters, I think it's of help to go back to what the historical record tells us. The first port of call has to be the archives of the Company of Watermen & Lightermen of the river Thames, as deposited at the Guildhall Library.

                                  Firstly, I find no mention here of the term chain lightermen. Having recently catalogued their entire holdings, if it exists, it's buried very deeply indeed.

                                  Secondly, there is a term for someone who ferried things, be it people, horses or whatever. It is 'ferryman'. These are well documented in the record ( I cite Guildhall Library Manuscripts MS 6389, 6389A, 6389B, 6390 to name but a few ).

                                  Thirdly, in the record, there is no precendent for naming an occupation after a part of the equipment used on a lighter. If there was, how come we see no mention of a rope lighterman, or a sweep/paddle/oar lighterman, these being the most common items of equipment?

                                  At this point I think it would be useful to point out that what we have focussed on up to now is one half of the phrase. ie chain, and not lighterman.

                                  Let's remember that what a lighterman was concerned with was cargo. So what did he have to do with cargo? He took it from ship to shore. And vice versa. He moved it from ship to shore in the docks. From ship to ship, in the docks, ( a trans-shipment). What he also did, particularly in the Pool of London, and the upper reaches, was move cargo from ship to ship. And here is where I think the truth lies.

                                  KiteRunner mentioned about sunken boats with their chains. What would a boat be doing, sunken, rigged with chains? It now seems likely that they'd be used as moorings, where perhaps, a lighterman, working the chains, would be employed?
                                  J

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                                  • #18
                                    The Cargo had to be unloaded and they would have used a Derrick for that. Perhaps your ancestor was responsible for fixing the chains to the load ready for lifting?

                                    On a Building Site today that job is called Banksman.
                                    Grampa Jim passed away September 2011

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