Trade opinions please.

[Keptin Thedark]

Hi,

I have a certain man who, throughout the census years, states his occupation as shipwright/ship carpenter.
His son's marriage certificate states that his fathers occupation is blacksmith.
Now I think it unlikely that a carpenter would become a blacksmith but I have a feeling that smiths would have been involved in shipbuilding.
We are talking 1840-1870 ish.

What do you think?

[Olde Crone Holden]

Um, I don't like this very much. The two trades are jealously guarded and although I SUPPOSE a shipwright carpenter could turn his hand to blacksmithing, why would he want to, and why would all the other blacksmiths let him?

Could it be a mistake and be the bride's father's occupation? I've seen this kind of transposition before.

I have generations of shipwrights on my Scottish side and none of them ever try to be blacksmiths, and their lesser sons who ARE blacksmiths, never try to be shipwrights or ships carpenters!

OC

[Keptin Thedark]

No I just though a blacksmith would be a necessary part of the process and as he was working on ships called himself a shipwright.
What's the difference between a shipwright and a ship carpenter anyway?
Is one a carpenter and one a smith?
And how did the stick boats together in those days anyway?
surely there would be some metalwork involved?

[Little Nell]

Blacksmithing and carpentry are quite different occupations and I haven't come across any crossing over.

Are you sure you have the right cert and/or right chap on the census?

[Keptin Thedark]

yes I've considered all of the above, I still think that smithies would have been a necessary part of the ship building industry, if you worked at the shipyard you may just call yourself a shpwright.

[Little Nell]

A shipwright was an old term for a ship builder. I think a ship's carpenter would be someone who made running repairs or fixed day-to-day items.

Ships are made out of whatever material is to hand - it used to be timber, but metal came into use later. But it would be welded or riveted I guess, not necessarily by a smith.

[Little Nell]

But this site: http://www.penobscotbayhistory.org/section/show_page/92

says that they would have blacksmiths involved in shipbuilding.

[Grampa Jim]

HMS Warrior, the first Steel Warship was built in 1860, so, yes Blacksmiths would be needed then, but even earlier they would have made rivets and nails and suchlike for the old sailing ships.

[Keptin Thedark]

Thanks for the link Nell,

lets suppose then, that a blacksmith that was part of the shipyard rather than contrated in, is it likely he would call himself a shipwright or a blacksmith?

[Little Nell]

I would have thought a blacksmith would call himself a blacksmith, personally.

[Keptin Thedark]

I would have thought a blacksmith would call himself a blacksmith, personally.

So would I, My grandfathers marriage certificate says he was a boilermaker but in later years he worked at a shipyard as a riveter, and was referd to as a shipbuilder.
Now, I would have said a boilermaker would come under the trade description of plumber.

So I suppose I ought to find a shipyard historian and pick their brains.

[Olde Crone Holden]

A shipwright was a good talented trade. You had to be better than "just" a carpenter as you had to understand the nature of the job and the stresses the wood would be put under.

A shipwright is the marine equivalent of a cabinet maker I would say - both carpenters but both better and more specialised skills than a bog standard carpenter.

Just about anybody could bang out nails and rivets on a forge, I would think, although please don't ask me to prove this personally, lol.

I wouldn't have thought that a shipwright between 1840-70 would have needed to downgrade to blacksmith - they were building boats as fast as they could between those years.

OC

[Olde Crone Holden]

Afterthought:

Considering how all my relatives big themselves up for an appearance on a marriage cert, I would expect the son of a man who had been a shipwright to put that on his cert.

OC

[Bee]

What was the bride's father's occupation? .... following OC's train of thought re: occupations being transposed by the vicar or registrar - would that give any clues?

Thinking aloud here, but doesn't a wheelwright craft both wood and metal? Or are the rims put on by a blacksmith? And if the man sailed with the ship, perhaps it would make sense to employ one man who could set his hand to both trades. Was he employed in the shipyard, or on the ship ie at sea?

Off to bed now, but let us know what the outcome is. If a definitive answer exists, to be found!

Bee.

[Little Nell]

Blacksmithing ws still a trade which required an apprenticeship. They didn't just bang out nails, OC, and I am quite sure that's more difficult that it seems. My grandfather was a blacksmith when he started out, and he did lots of things besides shoeing horses - though my Mum has a lovely photo of him doing just that, when he was in the army. He did make wrought-iron gates, helped lay on water pipes and all sorts.

BUT he was also adept at carpentry and made a washstand with a towel rack for his first married home.

[Keptin Thedark]

Well maybe he bigged himself up on the census and his son didn't think much of him and told the truth on his marriage cert lol........
The father died when the son was in his teens and so it is unlikely that he would have forgotten his fathers profession.
Obviously I have my doubts or I wouldnt have posted this thread.
All the evidence points to it being the correct family and correct cert, I've folllowed them from Scotland into the north east of England and with a few unusuall names thrown in. I'll just have to buy a couple of death certs and see what that throws up.

Thanks for your thoughts.

[Keptin Thedark]

Brides fathers occupation- Labourer.

[Olde Crone Holden]

Nell

No, I didn't mean blacksmithing was an unskilled trade, I meant that anyone could bang out a few nails and rivets - particularly a man with allied skills such as a carpenter/shipwright.

Each man to his trade though - blacksmiths who turn out perfect work in their own field wouldn't be keen on a shipwright muscling in and vice versa.

One of my shipwright carpenters was not employed in a shipyard, he worked on his own account and his second son was a blacksmith, presumably doing the ironwork while his dad got on with the wooden bits!

But of course, none of us were there when the information was offered. Some of my relatives are overcome by thickness in the presence of a Registrar and say all sorts of stupid and incorrect things, due to not understanding the question.

I have one female registering the birth of her child and when asked "Mother's name?" gives the name of HER mother, the idiot. This was corrected at a later date.

OC

[Keptin Thedark]

The story of John Readhead is that of an extremely successful industrialist in South Shields. From being a practical Blacksmith or Millwright, he built up one of the most prosperous shipbuilding firms on Tyneside. In this he was assisted by the co-operation of a large family of sons, all of whom became partners in the firm.

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Interesting to see the crossover of trades.

Do you think he called himself a blacksmith or a shipbuilder?

[Olde Crone Holden]

Depends whether he was building metal ships or wooden ones!

I grant you the two trades are symbiotic (ship's carp and blacksmith) but I still think they are distinctly separate trades, proved by the fact that they have distinctly separate apprenticeships.

OC