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Great Grandfather - Help with dating Uniforms Royal Engineers

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  • Great Grandfather - Help with dating Uniforms Royal Engineers

    A cousin of my fathers was very kind enough to send me several photographs of my paternal great grandfather this week. I had never seen as much as one of him before as he died a few years before my birth, so as you can imagine was delighted. Included were some pictures of him during his army career. I sent off to the Mod earlier this year and recieved his service records, so I know he was in the Royal Engineers, joined up aged 19 in 1915. Served at rank of Driver 1915-1921, Corporal 1921-1928, and then Sergeant 1928-1938.

    I was wondering if using this information any expert with uniforms might help me date the three photos. The only one I can definitely date is the third, taken in Cairo xmas 1928. He looks younger in the other two so I'm assuming the first was taken during WWI, and the second some time after promotion to corporal. He has four stripes on his lapel but I have no idea wether that would confirm my dating or not?

    ANy help much appreciated

    Photo 1:


    Photo 2:


    Photo 3:
    Last edited by Richard; 12-02-08, 01:56.

  • #2
    Hi Richard,

    I'm no expert in uniforms, but I think the upside down chevrons are for good conduct, so they are presumably late in his army career, for him to have earned so many.

    Here are some WW1 photos of my father in RE uniform for comparison. He was only in the army for the duration of the war, going back to his civilian job of locomotive fitter afterwards. He was made a lance-corporal (responsible for maintaining a searchlight on the Isle of Wight) by December 1917 when he married my mother, which helps to date the group. Incidentally, I never saw him with a moustache!





    Hope this is some help.

    Roger
    Last edited by Pippa Doll; 12-11-08, 21:46.

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    • #3
      Photo No 2 the one with 4 stripes, Has a single stripe on the left arm - so Lance corporal? so 1920-1?
      Last edited by James; 12-02-08, 09:36.

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      • #4
        The single upward facing chervon on his lower left arm denotes two and a half to three years good conduct (or as some old swets would have it "two and a half years of never being caught" ). The four smaller chevrons on his right lower arm are for overseas/length of service (I can never remember which and always get them mixed up). He is also wearing, visable just under the shoulder seam on his arm a formation ensignia of a vertical stripe/bar set in a triangle which came into being on uniforms from mid 1915. The photograph of him wearing his cap was taken long after 1916 as men in the trenches started to take the wire stiffener out of their caps at this time as the caps were found to be uncomfortable whilst on active service, it would also have been taken after 1919 when the medals that he is wearing (looks like pip, squeak, and wilfred but I could be wrong) were issued. Both photograph's 1 & 2 show no rank chevron(s) on the upper arm so he would have been a Sapper (Private)/ driver, therefore would predate him getting to the dizzy heights of being a Corporal.

        don

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        • #5
          Thanks Roger, James, Don, all most helpful.

          I think then the first photo must date from very early in his career 1915/16. That's very interesting Don about the hats not being worn in the trenches.

          The second probably then circa 1920, if he is not yet corporal and the medals are post 1919. Also if the four stripes represent years of foreign service, he left UK for France March 1916 so would have reached four years overseas in 1920, as he stayed on in Europe, in the Rhineland as part of the Allied Occupation Force, perhaps it is taken whilst he was there.

          Thanks again.

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          • #6
            Don, don't wish to appear cheeky, but could I possibly ask you to take a look at another two photos? These were also with the photos of my great grandfather, we believe they may be of either my great grandfather or my great grandmothers brothers, but have no more info than that. I'm assuming they are also WWI era, but a rough dating and any info on what regiment or division of the army they may have belonged to would of course help enormously in trying to find out exactly who they are.





            Thank you in advance.

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            • #7
              [QUOTE=Richard;1070243]Thanks Roger, James, Don, all most helpful.

              I think then the first photo must date from very early in his career 1915/16. That's very interesting Don about the hats not being worn in the trenches.
              QUOTE]

              But doesn't the first photo have him wearing a medal bar above his breast pocket, which would date it towards the end of the war.
              Judith passed away in October 2018

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              • #8
                Actually yes I suppose given that it's possible photos one and two were both taken the same time, one with hat one without. Unfortunately cannot see further down for the chevrons on photo one to see if that is so. I guess I was just thinking he 'looks' younger to me in photo one, though I could be wrong, and was going on what Don said about the hats not being worn during the war, though maybe I'm making too much of an assumption there, plenty of other reasons he may not have been wearing his cap.

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                • #9
                  English Bob that's spot on with his Medal Card and his service records. He joined up Oct 1915, and did not go out to France until March 1916, so was not eligable for the 14-15 Star. He was awarded the BWM & Victory.

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                  • #10
                    Richard,

                    Sorry I did not catch the other two photographs that were added to this thread sooner. However the first of these two show a Private wearing a good conduct stripe on his lower left arm and there appears to be a dark area on his lower right arm above the cuff area which could be some form of ensignia. Other than it being before 1924 when this photograph was taken and that he is not wearing cloth puttees around his trousers. The second one also shows a Private who is wearing oversea's/service chevron's on his lower right arm. He is wearing cloth puttees over his trousers and has a lanyard looped through his left shoulder tab, the end of which is attached to his jack knife in his left breast pocket. Although he is wearing medal ribbons the photograph is not clear enough (nor close enough) to say which medals they represent, they could be ones awarded for service pre world war one or even ones earned during that conflict. His Service Cap still has its stiffener in the crown area and looks newly issued (or very well cared for) again the image is not too clear to form an opinion on the regiment from the badge. Like the first of these two photograph's the photograph was taken pre 1924.

                    don

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                    • #11
                      Hi Judith,

                      Sorry if my posting was miss leading but Service Dress Caps (commonly known as SD Caps) were worn in the trenches, I was pointing out that a strand of wire, used for making the cap take on a stiff crisp appearance, was removed to make them more comfortable to wear. by removing the stiffening wire the hats took on a more crumpled appearance and shape. In 1917 OR's (other rank's) where issued with a softer version of the SD Cap which had a stitched peak. This new version could be folded and placed in either a pocket or pack. As an aside to this but staying on the theme of headwear for the British soldier, the steel helmet came into being in early 1916 and was worn in the trenches after this date replacing, in many case's, the SD Cap.

                      don.

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                      • #12
                        Thanks for that Don. I will see if I can get a better quality/bigger scan re the badge and medal ribbons.

                        Richard

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