Is this a possible Clara? Your gut feelings please.

[taffyfrog]

It starts out with five BUXTON sisters all born in Sheffield:

Clara c 1841
Mary Ann c1844
Louisa Dinah c1846
Catherine (Kate) c1849
Sophia Anne c1851

I’ve sorted out what happened to all of them except Clara.

Clara's sister Mary Ann married William Henry Smith.
Here he is in 1861 with father Thomas .


HO107; Piece: 2228; Folio: 157; Page: 1

Thomas SMITH (head) c1827 Manchester, Lancs
Elizabeth SMITH (wife) c1827 Manchester, Lancs
William MOTTRAM (grandpa) c1799 Manchester, Lancs
Susannah MOTTRAM (daughter) c1838 Manchester, Lancs
William Hy SMITH (son) c1847 Manchester, Lancs
Phoebe SMITH (daughter) c1850 Manchester, Lancs

Thomas SMITH’s profession is Slater


I can't find any of them in 1871 except a Thomas Smith who seems to fit the bill with - a Clara (born 1841 Sheffield)

1871; Residence Stockport, Cheshire, England
RG10; Piece: 3662; Folio: 8; Page: 10

Thomas SMITH (head) c1829 Manchester, Lancs
Clara SMITH (wife) c1841 Sheffield, Yorkshire
Kate SMITH (daughter) c1863 Chester, Cheshire,
Phoebe SMITH (daughter) c1867 Barrow in Furness, Cheshire
Sarah A SMITH (daughter) c1868 Bolton, Lancashire
William S SMITH c1870 Bolton, Lancashire

Thomas Smith’s profession is Master Slater employing five men

The problem is I can't find a marriage for a Clara Buxton to a Thomas Smith (although I suppose Clara could have married before but she was single in 1861). And that would also mean that Clara would be also be her sister's step mum-in-law. Was this allowed?

Some of Mary Ann's children were born in Chester and Stockport and the three other sisters (Kate, Sophia and Louisa lived in Barrow). My head is now buzzing so any light relief would be welcome. Just wish they weren't called Smith.

[vikki brace]

My gut says it is possible.

But because Smith is such a common name and there are quite a few marriages between Thomas Smiths and Clara's between 1861 & 1871, I would want to prove it, you may find by ordering a birth cert for one of the children that might tell you, but they could all belong to the first wife.

As there are 2 Pheobe's and 2 Williams you might want to check for the deaths of the older 2.

[taffyfrog]

Hi Vikki

Yes, I rather liked the 1862 marriage in Manchester for Clara Buxton but have cross-checked it on ancestry images and no corresponding Thomas Smith. Drat. Have spent rather a lot of money on certs recently! Will save up pennies and get the youngest child's birth cert.

[vikki brace]

Get the 2nd Pheobe, as Clara is with her in 1901, So she might be your best bet

[BigShaz McCreadie]

The IGI does have a Phoebe Sophia Smith and a Sarah Ann Smith both being baptised on 28 FEB 1869 at Holy Trinity, Bolton Le Moors, Lancashire, England.

Parents are Thomas and Clara Smith.

I know its no help at all and you probably already have this but just wanted to say something instead of just viewing the thread having a search then not saying anything :D

[taffyfrog]

Vikki

Yes, wll go for that

Big Shaz

No I hadn't got that far but Phoebe Sophia eh? Woo-hoo, looking better and better. Thanks. didn't occur to me actually as it was quite a late birth

[taffyfrog]

Here it is

Mar QTR 1867

Smith Phoebe Sophia Ulverstone 8c 654
thanks and it's Ulverstone RD - like the marriages for the three other sisters, Kate, Louisa and Sophia.

Ooh, I could kiss you both. Smack! Headache now gone.

[BigShaz McCreadie]

Glad I could help a little and that your headache has gone

[Christine in Herts]

The IGI does have a Phoebe Sophia Smith and a Sarah Ann Smith both being baptised on 28 FEB 1869 at Holy Trinity, Bolton Le Moors, Lancashire, England.

Parents are Thomas and Clara Smith.

I know its no help at all and you probably already have this but just wanted to say something instead of just viewing the thread having a search then not saying anything :D

Lancashire OnLine Parish Clerk Project - Parish of Bolton Parish Church of Holy Trinity, Greater Bolton

This link will tell you that the father's occupation was "slater", and that their "abode" was Blackburn Street.

In addition, Phoebe Sophia SMITH, of same parentage, father's occupation and abode, is the next baptism in the register.

Similarly, William Thomas SMITH, bap 10 Apr 1870

Christine

[Christine in Herts]

I also meant to remark...

If there were a pre-existing relationship which would have made Thomas and Clara's marriage untenable in state or church law, they may have opted out of the procedure - i.e. there will have been no formal marriage.

On my father's side, there's a couple who lived as man and wife through lots of censuses, and she was buried (and her death registered) as Elizabeth STRATFORD - but the burial register has the cryptic additional remark "properly called GARDNER". The husband, John STRATFORD, had been married to her elder sister, who had had a son (d aged 9 months) and a daughter (d aged 1 month). The elder sister, Hannah, died aged 27 and was buried a week before her second child was buried.

John and Elizabeth's first (of at least five) child was b two years later.

Christine

[Little Nell]

You have two sisters who seem to have married a father/son combination. I don't think this was against the law - can't see it in the list of prohibited marriages Prohibited Marriages

I have sisters that marry two brothers and also father/son marrying aunt/niece etc.
Its probable that in earlier times when people weren't as mobile that they'd be more likely to marry folk already connected by marriage to them.

[Little Nell]

Not sure if this is useful, but anyway

from IGI
CLARA BUXTON
Marriages:
Spouse: HENRY MAUGHAM
Marriage: 05 MAR 1862 Cathedral, Manchester, Lancashire, England
Messages:
Extracted marriage record for locality listed in the record. The source records are usually arranged chronologically by the marriage date.
Source Information: Batch No.: M097895

and

marriages 1884 Jan-Feb-Mar Huddersfield Yorkshire
Emily Clayton
Joseph Garside
Clara Maugham
Thomas Smith

[taffyfrog]

Hi Christine and Little Nell

I would be a bit surprised at the non marriage as this was a very 'proper' family and a couple of the sisters had daughters called Clara. The Maugham Buxton marriage is also on FreeBMD - on a page where there are two brides and only one groom! Ancestry images not much help either.

I think I will have to get the birth cert of Phoebe Sophia - I like going with gut feelings and it'll be either right or wrong... I think the mention of Sophia as Phoebe's second name and registered in Ulverstone RD has done it. Could be wrong of course but needs eliminating.

Wish me luck, these sisters have lead me a merry dance for a while and in the past month a lot of light has suddenly been shed.

[taffyfrog]

OOOOhhhhh Little Nell

Just read your info properly!
So Clara could have been calling herself Smith in 1871 but she didn't marry Thomas still quite a few years later. Certainly needs investigating!

[Little Nell]

But maybe not - you'd need to check the other couple on the page.

[taffyfrog]

Yep, but the problem is there are two women and only one man (Mr Maugham)

[Christine in Herts]

Yep, but the problem is there are two women and only one man (Mr Maugham)

But haven't you got the IGI (M097895) marriage in 1862?

The IGI reckons Emma HOPE married Henry JOHNSON. (checked Henry JOHNSON is on 8d 272 as well - it doesn't come up on Ancestry because the FreeBMD transcriber couldn't tell whether the middle digit were a 7 or a 9. It's a 7, like the others.)

Christine

[taffyfrog]

Chrstine

No, I've never found anything that late on IGI of interest to me so it's slipped out of my research avenues for that period. Lesson learned. I'd only seen the one on FreeBMD.

[Christine in Herts]

Chrstine

No, I've never found anything that late on IGI of interest to me so it's slipped out of my research avenues for that period. Lesson learned. I'd only seen the one on FreeBMD.

You'd be in trouble with a teacher for that! "Not reading the question" (sort-of†) The first half of Nell's post quoted the IGI for you!

Christine

†and guess who's also guilty of that from time to time!:o

[taffyfrog]

Ha ha Christine

The problem is I AM A TEACHER - shall just have to give myself 10 of the best I suppose! (heads for drinks cabinet).
Hope there are no pupils reading this...