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**Olde Crone Holden** · 26-01-08, 16:22

Just to give you a bit of moral support here, I have ancestors who also lived at Berry Hills in 1861 and told endless confusing lies about themselves, changing their names and ages and relationships at a whim.

Maybe something in the water, eh?

OC

**Elizabeth Herts** · 26-01-08, 16:28

Oh, OC, I expect so! LOL

Helen's birth isn't on the IGI, and on the censuses there are other Helen Johnstons in Aberdeen.

But it is a fact (ASSUMING eveyone is telling the truth) that Helen Johnston, previously married to a chap with the surname Summers, and with the parents James and Catherine Johnston, married a man called Patrick Cheyne Cumine in 1897.

**Olde Crone Holden** · 26-01-08, 22:28

Have just been chasing my Craigs. William, born 1809 in Banchory Devenick, to parents John Craig and Agnes Walker. (From William's death cert - his father was a Farmer, right?)

So I find not one but TWO marriages for John Craig and Agnes Walker. I then batch and find William's sibs, looking good, all born in Banchory.

Try to trace them in 1841, don't get anywhere and decide to try sibling George, born 1813.

There are SIX of them in Banchory in 1841, and four of them live next door to each other and three of them have wives called Margaret, two of them are white fishers and the third is a whitefisher, infirm.

Nobody is a flaming farmer! And in 1851, my William is living in Aberdeen.

Just so you know you are not alone!

OC

**Elizabeth Herts** · 26-01-08, 22:35

Oh, OC, I wouldn't wish it on you, but I'm glad I'm not the only one confused about people all with the same names.

There seem to be at least two couples called William Summers and Helen Johnston, and tomorrow, when my brain is clearer, I shall have to find out who had which children.

But I have already spent ££££ on Scotland's People the last week!

**Elizabeth Herts** · 27-01-08, 09:34

I have just paid another £12 to Scotland's People in an effort to resolve this.

I have the birth record for Williamina Robertson Summers (possibly/probably "Minnie" on the 1901 census).

They were living at 23 Shoe Lane as the census showed. Father: William Summers Seaman (Merchant Service)
Mother: Helen Summers MS Johnston

DATE OF MARRIAGE: 11th DECEMBER 1875
Which is the same date as the certificate above with the wrong parents for Helen.

**Elizabeth Herts** · 27-01-08, 09:53

UPDATE -

I know that the 1901 census is the correct Helen Johnston/Summers/Cumine because of the marriage certificate.

I have been looking at the children on their as they are "definites".

Alexander Summers was 8 in 1901. So I thought that he was born too late for him to be William Summer's son. Here is his birth entry:

Alexander David Murray Johnston or Summers
24th November 1882 52 Charles Street Aberdeen
Father: -
Mother: Helen Johnston, Widow of William Summers, Seaman, who was lost at sea near Montrose 25th January 1890

Why is the marriage certificate wrong (for William Summers and Helen Johnston)
If there is another couple of the same name, why can't I find another certificate?:(

**Elizabeth Herts** · 27-01-08, 10:15

OC - Where are you?

I have looked on Ancestry for the 1881 Census-

Only one William Summers and wife Helen plus sons William and James

BUT
In Old Machar Aberdeen:
George Johnston 38
Ann Johnstone 19
George Johnstone 24
Helen Johnstone 63
Helen Johnstone 29

(Johnstone has been corrected to Johnston)

HELEN JOHNSTON with parents George and Helen DID NOT MARRY William Summers in 1875 - she is single (and an Ostrich Feather Dresser!) in 1881 as shown above.

Did my Helen Johnston lie on her marriage cert. to hide her identity - if so why? Why else are the wrong parents given?

**Olde Crone Holden** · 27-01-08, 13:56

Elizabeth

Are the dates correct for Alexander's birth? You have him born 1882 and his father lost at sea in 1890! Edit - sorry, yes, I understand!

Does his cert state illegitimate? (If not, why not, lol, one of mine does!)

I honestly can't offer any explanation for your "two Helens" other than a mistake by the registrar, but it cannot be a mistake - it would have been an amazing mistake to accidentally quote parents who belonged to another Helen!

And why would either of them lie, I cannot see the point.

Erm - where did they marry? Is it a house? Just thinking the vicar might have known both families and got confused.....

OC

**Elizabeth Herts** · 27-01-08, 14:05

OC - Alexander's birth certificate says:

Alexander David Murray Johnston or Summers (Illegitimate)
Father -
Mother Helen Johnston Widow of William Summers, Seaman, who was lost at sea near Montrose 25th January 1890

In Scotland they seem to get married in private houses!

I have a contact on GR who is descended from Helen Johnston/Summers/Cumine via Williamina, so I have sent her a pm. She has Helen born in Fetterso, but in all the censuses it says Aberdeen, even the 1861 census when she is with her parents.

There is no birth for her in the OPRs on Scotland's People. :(

I seems as if Helen told a lie at one stage, and then it got hard to stop telling it!

**Olde Crone Holden** · 27-01-08, 14:11

Elizabeth

Yes, the marrying in private houses thing...did she marry in her own home?

Just free-thinking here - if she married in George's house (for some unknown reason!) the Minister might have assumed that the Helen he was marrying was George's daughter, as he knew George also had a daughter Helen and he didnt wonder why they looked different?

If Helen couldn't read - she wouldn't have known she had the wrong parents on her cert!

Otherwise I just cannot see what anyone would gain from a "deception" like this.

OC

**Elizabeth Herts** · 27-01-08, 14:21

OC, I have just checked the marriage entry.

William and Helen maried in 3 Hanover Street Aberdeen, which was also given as William Summers' usual residence.

I'm not sure I'm going to get an answer to this one. The George Johnston father of the other Helen doesn't appear to be related to my Johnston family, either.

The one thing that is correct is the occupation of Helen Johnston's father - "House Carpenter (Journeyman)" which is correct for James Johnston of Fettersso. However GEORGE Johnston was a Saw Miller!

**Phoenix** · 27-01-08, 15:06

George and James both have the same occupation. Is that likely if they were unrelated?
Could Helen have been adopted by James? Would she then have given adopted parents' details in one onstance and real parents in another?

Do you have any instances whatsoever of two Helens on a census?

**Elizabeth Herts** · 27-01-08, 16:26

Hi Phoenix -

1881 Census
George Johnston 38 Saw Miller Journeyman
Ann Johnstone 19
George Johnstone 24
Helen Johnstone 63
Helen Johnstone 29 Ostrich Feather Dresser

1881 Census
23 Shoe Lane Aberdeen
Helen Summers 28
James Summers 10 M
William Summers 28 Mariner MS
William Summers 3

There were definitely TWO Helen Johnstons born about the same time in Aberdeen.

On the 1861 census my Helen Johnston is with her family:
1861 Census
Berryhill, Carpenter House Fetteresso
James Johnston Head Married 35 House Carpenter Born Kincardineshire Cookney
Catherine wife Married 35 born Fetteresso
Helen daughter 8 scholar born Aberdeenshire, Aberdeen
Catherine daughter 6 born Kincardineshire, Banchory Dev.
Mary daughter 4 born Kincardineshire, Banchory Dev
James son 1 born Kincardineshire, Cookney

1861
Hangate Old Machar Aberdeen
Christina Johnston 11
George Johnston 38 Saw Miller
George Johnston 4
Helen Johnston 9
Hellen Johnston 42
John Johnston 6

I have a direct descendant of Helen Johnston who is a contact on GR. I have pmd her to ask - she has the parents of Helen as James and Catherine (nee Wishart) - my great-great-grandparents.

**Olde Crone Holden** · 27-01-08, 16:40

Maybe totally offbeam here - but who is this?

Helen Johnston b 20 Oct 1853 bp 27 Nov, Nigg, Kincardineshire, parents James Johnston and HELENA PATTERSON.

OC

**Elizabeth Herts** · 27-01-08, 16:51

Ah, OC - that's another family altogether!! LOL! :(

You wouldn't believe it, would you!

**Olde Crone Holden** · 27-01-08, 17:39

Have had a mooch around and come up with the following - apologies if you already have it - if you have, no wonder your head hurts, lol.

Found James and George in 1851 - as you say, no apparent connection at all.

Um - what is THIS, though?

Marriage James Johnston to Catherine Wishart 21 December 1851 Banchory Devenish

AND

James Johnston to Catherine Wishart, 31 December 31 1851, Nigg, Kincardineshire.

Same couple reported twice in two parishes? Or two different couples????

Ditto for George (or Geroge, as Ancestry calls him)

Marriage George Johnston to Helen Ferguson 27 Jun 1846 Marnoch (which is where George says he was born, on 1851)

AND

George Johnston to Helen FARQUHARSON, 1 July 1846 Fyvie.

Same couple reported twice in their home parishes? Or two different couples? Ferguson and Farquharson sound the same.

I don't know where that gets you anyway! Unless EACH couple has a parallel family, of course.

OC

**Elizabeth Herts** · 27-01-08, 17:45

OC - It is the Scottish system - those are my great-great-grandparents (James Johnston and Catherine Wishart)

It is thought that the two entries are the BANNS and not the actual marriage, although the later one might be the marriage.

I have a Wishart expert resident in Scotland and expert in Scottish research (One name study of Wisharts) who told me this.

So if you find a double entry again, don't worry too much!!

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Helen Johnston born c 1853 Aberdeen - total confusion!

Helen Johnston born c 1853 Aberdeen - total confusion!

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