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Olde Crone Holden
25-01-08, 23:23
http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff207/marjoriepeek/scan0004.jpg

I can date one of these photos exactly, but I would like your free-flow thoughts, impressions etc on both of them.

I'll tell you why, later!

OC

Rachel Scand
25-01-08, 23:52
The women look very similar
hairline, ears, features in general ... the outfit on the right is fascinating and looks as if it's from an earlier era ... she's quite masculine looking :confused:

Think it could do with a bit of colour ! :)

Is that a 'nursing chair' on the left ? ... upholstered in velvet ?
The child could be a boy ... and has 'mum's' nose.
She's wearing a wedding ring

Where are Don and Barbara ?

Margaret in Burton
25-01-08, 23:58
I think they are the same woman and the first one is late Victorian era and the second one Edwardian

Rachel Scand
26-01-08, 00:04
Lack of corset in pic 2 ?

Olde Crone Holden
26-01-08, 00:10
Interesting...keep going....!

OC

samesizedfeet
26-01-08, 00:17
I'd say they look like the same person but my only niggling doubt is that for the ampount she's aged in the second one there doesn't seem to be an equivalent progression in the dating of the outfits.

if anything the clothes in the younger photo appear more recent than those in teh older

Rachel Scand
26-01-08, 00:23
if anything the clothes in the younger photo appear more recent than those in teh older

Yes ... that was my thinking too .... also the hairstyles

Olde Crone Holden
26-01-08, 00:36
Ooooh, you are both saying exactly what I want you to say!!!

The first pic is my greatgrandmother, Eleanor Holden, nee Green, with my grandfather on her knee. He was born in November 1891 and I would say this photo must be 1892-3.

The second photo is supposed to be her, too, but I have lately been having doubts, for the same reasons as you. She died in 1919,(aged 52) so it cannot be LATER than that (if it is her).

They were a wealthy merchant family and there would have been no need for her to wear something unfashionable - my GGF was very dapper and I am sure he would have expected his wife to dress in the fashion of the day.

But if not her, then who is it? Her own mother died many years before at the age of 36, so not her. She had several sisters, but none of them would have looked this old in the 1910s.

The second photo looks as if it was taken in the dining room of their home - I very vaguely remember that huge picture on the wall and a highly decorated sideboard underneath it.

Do we definitely think it is the same woman in both photos?

OC

Margaret in Burton
26-01-08, 00:40
I still think its the same woman.

What did she die of?

Could it be something that made her look older than she was?

Olde Crone Holden
26-01-08, 00:51
Margaret

She "died of a broken heart" when her son did not return from WW1.

In fact, she died of flu in the epidemic of 1919 and her son was present at her death.

I never heard that she was in any way unhealthy, but I have often wondered why there was only one child of this marriage - possibly she was "delicate". Her husband absolutely adored her and by all accounts indulged her every whim.

OC

samesizedfeet
26-01-08, 00:57
I'd say that dress is quite fancy for war time actually. Lots of frills and buttons and a chiffony bits at the bottom.

Olde Crone Holden
26-01-08, 01:02
Zoe

Yes, I agree, and also rather old fashioned!

Hemlines were going up in WW1. The dress looks more like pre war to me, which means that she would only have been in her forties when the photo was taken and she looks older than that to me. Her hand looks particularly careworn!

OC

samesizedfeet
26-01-08, 01:02
http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k104/samesizedfeet/315598d8.jpg

Just Gillian
26-01-08, 01:03
I think it is definitely the same woman but am not sufficiently "up" on the clothing to date it.

I was trying to work out what makes her look older in the second one. Her face is unlined so I'm wondering if it is because her hair is apparently fading. I then wondered if that might simply be an illusion because the light is coming in from the left (our left).

She seems to have very long fingers in the first photo.

Olde Crone Holden
26-01-08, 01:20
I have it on good authority that all the sisters dyed their hair with cold tea, which might account for the peculiar colour!

She looks rather awkward and stiff to me - perhaps she had rheumatism, which would account for her hands.

I think I just have to accept that she aged rather fast, for whatever reason, and that this photo was taken pre war.

OC

Macbev
26-01-08, 03:17
I'd say they look like the same person but my only niggling doubt is that for the ampount she's aged in the second one there doesn't seem to be an equivalent progression in the dating of the outfits.

if anything the clothes in the younger photo appear more recent than those in teh older

Unless there were problems updating wardrobes in wartime, and she was obliged to wear something she'd had stashed away for a while?

brenmac
26-01-08, 09:00
i have one of motheringlaw she was born 1909,and on the photo with that same hairstyle she was 20 so i would say 1929,my hubby,s grandmother also wore the same hairstyle so it could be from 1910 brenda xxx

Rachel Scand
26-01-08, 09:22
What I was also thinking last night was that she's not showing her ankles (pic 2) and I had imagined that it was a studio photo because of what I thought was a wall hanging .... so she would have been dressed well.
But if they were wealthy and it was taken in their home, then maybe ? hmmm ... might she have been wearing a favourite outfit rather than the most fashionable ?
She does look incredibly thin ...

Just Barbara
26-01-08, 11:28
Wow that is a lovely dress must have cost a fortune, about 1910 I think, though her hairdo is a bit earlier, I'm sure it's the same lady look at the mouth and eyes.

Olde Crone Holden
26-01-08, 14:40
Yes, incredibly thin and mannish too, a far cry from the pretty young woman she was.

There were four sisters, two who were stick thin and tall and two who were short and chubby.

You may be right, it may have been a favourite dress, it does look as if it would have been expensive, although all four of the sisters were exquisite needlewomen - one was a tailoress.

I don't think WW1 felt the shortage of clothes that there was in WW2 and my great grandfather was a very adept mover in the black market anyway!

I had been playing with the idea that the second photo might have been her husband's mother, as it looks older than the one of her taken in 1892, but you seem to agree with me that both photos are of the same woman, so I can throw that idea away!

OC

Little Nell
27-01-08, 12:05
I would just concur that it seems to be the same woman (or a very close relative).

As for only having one child -

My gt grandparents John & Emma only had one child, my maternal grandmother, who was born 2 years after they married. Emma died when grannie was just 11. I've wondered if she/he/they weren't fertile, or that she had such a bad time producing Grannie (though this is conjecture I don't have any anecdotes about it) that they decided not to have any more children.

Rachel Scand
27-01-08, 14:44
I've been reading through this again ... that dress still bothers me ! :D but maybe if she had a bust, it would look more normal ?

My mother's mother's mother was born in 1869 and died in 1918 (flu epidemic).
I have one photograph of her .... estimated to have been taken in 1893 ... will see if I can find it to put on here .... just to compare the clothes and hairdo.

Rachel Scand
27-01-08, 15:32
Grt Gran ... 1869 - 1918 .... taken abt 1893 when she only had 1 offspring.
Looks as if she has short hair but I can't be sure ... rather a strange looking woman but she had very attractive daughters.

http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o228/rachelscand/Annie-Fweb.jpg

Olde Crone Holden
27-01-08, 16:37
Rachel

Yes, the dress still bothers me!

However - if the photo was taken at home, maybe this is what she was wearing - an old, "best frock", to get the wear out of it indoors.

(Wonder what happened to it???).

She died long before I was born of course, but I remember her three sisters very well - they lived in her house after she died, taking care of my GGF. And they wore what I now realise were Edwardian clothes, without the slightest regard for fashion. Good clothes though.

Of course....I have only been TOLD they only had one child. Maybe the 1911 census will say something different? Family memory hasn't proved remarkably accurate so far.

Rachel

Your photo shows a very similar fashion to mine of the same year, although mine is wearing a blouse and skirt, it has the same puff sleeves etc. Do you have any later ones of the same lady to compare?

OC

Little Nell
27-01-08, 17:07
OC

I think the lady's age from her face rather than from her clothes is a good guide. Maybe it was a special frock (perhaps from a wedding) and she is proudly showing that it still fits? Or maybe it was one that belonged to another family member and she is showing it fits her too.

Olde Crone Holden
27-01-08, 19:20
Mmmm.... her sisters were very much the poor relations and two were far too fat to have had a frock like that at any time in their life.

To bring in a new element here.....does anyone think the dress looks a bit foreign? My grandfather was a much indulged only child, and studied at a University in Germany before WW1.

It would have been a very special dress if her son had bought it for her, never mind whether it did much for her!

Rummaging around, I found a photo of her sister Emily, taken when Emily was in her 90s - her skin is hardly lined at all. Good skin genes?

OC

Rachel Scand
27-01-08, 19:42
To bring in a new element here.....does anyone think the dress looks a bit foreign? My grandfather was a much indulged only child, and studied at a University in Germany before WW1.


I did wonder at first whether the 2 pics were taken in England ... erm .... but that could be because she reminds me of Anton Diffring (pic 2) .... not sure if I should have said that ! :D :o

Joan of Archives
27-01-08, 20:51
Looking at her eyebrows, earlobes, mouth & hairline, I would definitely say it was the same person.

Also, remember even if it was taken in say 1911/12 that is a full 20 years after the first one, & so she would look definitely aged by then.

:)

Olde Crone Holden
27-01-08, 21:09
Rachel

Who is Anton Diffring???

She is absolutely 100% Cheshire, right back to 1498 - the easy branch of my family!

Funny, because I always think this side of my family look Jewish and I used to tease my dad that they had changed their name from Greenbaum to Green, lol. Drove him up the wall. But I don't have the slightest reason to think there has ever been any hankypanky in the Greens, and Gawsworth, Cheshire, was not a notably Jewish area lol.

Incidentally, Thomas Green, my 7 x GGF on this line was buried with the note "a very tall man", so that is where the height comes from - we are all tall.

OC

Merry Monty Montgomery
27-01-08, 22:35
The second photo looks as if it was taken in the dining room of their home - I very vaguely remember that huge picture on the wall and a highly decorated sideboard underneath it.

Do we definitely think it is the same woman in both photos?

OC

I do think they are the same woman, though I am surprised at the early date of the first one.

Are you sure that is their dining room? The draped fabric on the left looks fake to me - photographers studio scene?

Jessbowbag
27-01-08, 23:04
I think they are both studio portraits.

Rachel Scand
27-01-08, 23:05
RachelWho is Anton Diffring???OC

A rather handsome German actor/film star with pale blue eyes who usually played SS Officers in WW2 films .... I did read somewhere that he was of Jewish origin

I'm googling images but can not find a good pic of him

You will def have seen him in nearly every black and white film related to WW2 ...
try this

http://www.pollanetsquad.it/asp%5Cattori%5Cimg%5C50_00.jpg

Olde Crone Holden
27-01-08, 23:24
Well, I could be wrong of course, and it COULD have been taken in a studio - it's just that if it was, then it exactly replicates their dining room, down to flappy curtains at the window, the chair (which I have in my possession!) and the carpet.

I didn't know ANYONE else who had a fitted carpet. This wasn't fitted in the way we think of today, it had been woven especially to fit the room. Over the years it stretched and ruckled up, lol.

The first photo is definitely taken in 1892/3 and is definitely my grandfather as a baby, with (almost definitely) his mother, Eleanor. I think that IS a studio photograph.

OC