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  • Catholic Marriages/Baptisms

    When did they start?

    Was it different dates in different parts of the country?



    Researching Irish families: FARMER, McBRIDE McQUADE, McQUAID, KIRK, SANDS/SANAHAN (Cork), BARR,

  • #2
    I have been looking at Catholic marriages today at the Manchester Archives for 1872
    PAT

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    • #3
      Catholic marriages have been going on for ages

      I know catholicism(sp) was banned during certain rules, but it pre-date the CofE as that wasn't introduced until Henry VIII created it.

      Sorry if its not really helpful:o

      Did find this though
      Clandestine Marriage in England ... - Google Book Search

      So the whole country was offically Catholic before the reformation. which took place around 1534
      Last edited by vikki brace; 17-01-08, 21:41. Reason: web site
      Vikki -
      Researching Titchmarsh and Tushingham

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      • #4
        The emancipations of the Catholics in United Kingdom was a slow process, starting in the 1780's and not really complete until mid 1800's. I'd imagine the earliest records of baptisms in England would date from around then, that's certainly the case in Ireland..very few registers kept before 1800, and Ireland was of course part of United Kingdom then too, so probably the same in England.

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        • #5
          I was just wondering whether someone would have been christened in C of E in 1820's so in the IGI and married in the catholic church in 1840's



          Researching Irish families: FARMER, McBRIDE McQUADE, McQUAID, KIRK, SANDS/SANAHAN (Cork), BARR,

          Comment


          • #6
            Oh, Sorry (all my waffle:o)

            Erm, yes it is possible, but I think (don't quote me though) that the person would have to by Baptised a Catholic before they could be married in a Catholic church.

            I think there are probably others who might know more
            Vikki -
            Researching Titchmarsh and Tushingham

            Comment


            • #7
              I've only just found this lot and not sure where I'm going with them at the minute.



              Researching Irish families: FARMER, McBRIDE McQUADE, McQUAID, KIRK, SANDS/SANAHAN (Cork), BARR,

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by JBee View Post
                I was just wondering whether someone would have been christened in C of E in 1820's so in the IGI and married in the catholic church in 1840's
                The answer seems to be possibly. The IGI does contain RC baps, as evidenced below.

                I have brothers who both married the same day in 1842 in the RC chapel in Bishopwearmouth (Sunderland). I have the cert. for one (OH's ancestor) and a member's dad found the register entry for the brother. RC baptisms for the brother and his wife-to-be are on the IGI circa 1815 in the same RC chapel. No bap found yet for OH's ancestor or his wife.

                So RC baps. occured long before RC marriages were legal.

                BTW I know they are brothers because they witnessed each other's marriages and had the same parents.
                Last edited by Uncle John; 17-01-08, 22:13.
                Uncle John - Passed away March 2020

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                • #9
                  I think probably RC baptisms were being carried out all the time. Whether they were recognised by the state would be another matter.

                  My Lancashire lot have their baptisms and marriages on the IGI as C of E, but in one Bible (a RC Bible as well) there are several references to Catholic baptisms, quite possibly away from the public eye.

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                  • #10
                    I myself am a catholic as was my mum my father was C.E
                    and the only way he could marry my Mum in the catholic church was if there children were brought up catholics He himself did not convert to the
                    catholic church

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Something that may be of note, when looking at my own RC ancestors I was a bit puzzled why my ancestor and her siblings often had different places down on their baptisms. I then found out that RC baptisms were usually carried out on day of birth when possible, the preist would visit the home or place of birth and do it there, i.e they didn't actually go to a church for the ceremony, like protestants would do.

                      Of course ALL marriages outside Anglican churches, with the exception of Quakers, was made illegal under Hardwicks Marriage Act of 1754. That was in place well into the 1800's not sure exactly when it was repealed, but ironically yes even once it had become possible once more to openly baptise children as catholic, it would still have been illegal for their parents to marry in RC church. However my own ancestors parents were nevertheless still married in the Catholic Church 1823, (they were in fact one of the first handful of couples in the very first page of the very first register!), so as time went on it was flouted, especially in Ireland where Catholics were in majority, probably not so much in England, or at least not so openly.

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                      • #12
                        Some RC churches also recorded marriages which were really blessings or nuptial masses, after marriage had taken place either in C of E or a Register Office.

                        I certainly have RC baptisms before 1837 but these are all in Lancashire, where the Roman church was tolerated for centuries. Some people were baptised twice, once in C of E and again in RC. The laws against Catholics were gradually relaxed from about 1780 onwards.

                        If you google the particular church, you may be able to drill down and find out when the church was licensed to perform marriages. This has nothing (much) to do with the law, rather with the desire of that specific church to do so.

                        OC

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                        • #13
                          Sorry been away trying to put the details in order - its a bit longwinded

                          Firstly

                          I have a Dorothy Kyle bc1805 Wallsend, Northumberland who married Thomas McDermid/McDermot/McDermond born in Ireland (any variation on a theme) but haven't found the marriage c1835
                          On IGI there is a birth and christening for a Dorothy Kyle in 1805 at Christ Church Tynemouth which gives parents George Kyle and Sarah Humble. So should I be looking for a marriage in an RC church or C of E?
                          I'm thinking it might be the right one as in 1841 census they appear as McDenmick's with a son George age 5 - and a George Kyle age 60 (possibly Dorothy's father but no sign of Sarah).
                          In the IGI I have found a baptism of a George McDermide at St Mary's RC Bishopwearmouth in 1837 (believe he died in c1842) who is probably their son as he doesn't appear in 1851 census.

                          Secondly

                          Have John McKenzie bc1828 Westmoreland Kendal/Appleby? who married Hannah Brown bc1825 Berwick upon Tweed. Have found them as McKursey in 1851 census with Margaret 5 and Catherine 2 but no sign in 1841 census
                          I haven't been able to find a marriage except perhaps Mar 1849 in Newcastle upon Tyne, where there's a Hannah Brown and John McKelney but don't know if it was to each other yet - only got Catherine's birth certificate with mothers maiden name on this week.
                          In the IGI there's an Anna Stevens Brown born 1825 in Berwick upon Tweed and christened in the RC church - could this be Hannah?
                          No sign of a birth for John McKenzie in Westmoreland though.

                          Again not sure if I should be looking for RC records (if they exist for that time frame) or C of E.
                          Last edited by JBee; 18-01-08, 01:26.



                          Researching Irish families: FARMER, McBRIDE McQUADE, McQUAID, KIRK, SANDS/SANAHAN (Cork), BARR,

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by JBee View Post
                            In the IGI I have found a baptism of a George McDermide at St Mary's RC Bishopwearmouth in 1837 (believe he died in c1842) who is probably their son as he doesn't appear in 1851 census.
                            That's the church where my wife's rellies were baptised/married. It would be interesting to find out more about it.
                            Uncle John - Passed away March 2020

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              It's a church I know well as it was my Mum's parish church when she was a girl. My uncle on my Dad's side was on the WW1 War Memorial there (until they took it away some years ago) though my Dad's family were at St Josephs. It's funny as that side lived in various pit villages in Co Durham so surprised to find the baptism in the town.

                              St Mary's is on Bridge Street close to the bridge in Sunderland just around the corner from the High Street. The railway station is quite close too and when a train comes in it thunders under your feet!! quite alarming unless you know.

                              I rang St Mary's on Sunday and they said their records are at the Archives Office in Newcastle - so it looks like I'll be making a visit up there once I've got myself together to know what to look for.

                              Tyne & Wear Archives Service

                              Their User Guide 12 is very informative.

                              Tel: 0191 232 6789 Ext 22248



                              Researching Irish families: FARMER, McBRIDE McQUADE, McQUAID, KIRK, SANDS/SANAHAN (Cork), BARR,

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                The Catholic Emancipation Act of 1829 made for Catholic baptisms and marriages to be perfectly legal. Before that date then technically speaking to be married or baptised in a catholic way was illegal, but much leniency went on from around 1770ish. This is one of the reasons you will not find many catholic churches around the UK pre 1800. Parts of the country never really lost their faith and many parts of Lancashire and other places held on to catholicism where they could as did most of Ireland.

                                Irish Catholic Churches sometimes predate many English ones and if mass could not be said in a church, then the people would gather at the local "Mass Rock" on the open hillside. The paths that led to these Rocks were known as "Mass Paths". In the same way Catholic Schools were prevalent all over Ireland long before they became common in the rest of the UK and children were taught in what was known as "Hedge Schools", which may have been a hedge or a barn or a shed.

                                Places like London always had some sort of catholic church for use by various diplomats from the more catholic countries of Italy, France and Spain. Pre 1800 catholics were known as "recusants" and there are lists of recusants. Certainly the Catholic Record Society is worth belonging to if you have Catholic ancestors pre 1800.

                                Janet

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                                • #17
                                  Thanks Janet

                                  I was wondering when it was legalised in England. I was surprised to find english catholics as I'd presumed it was their spouses from Ireland that had been the catholics.

                                  Thanks for the info on the Emancipation Act - I'd wondered when they could be married or baptised as catholics in offical records.

                                  Seeing the birth for Dorothy Kyle which fits - I'm left wondering if I should be still be looking for a birth/baptism in catholic records too.

                                  Well I've just started on this lot so it will be quite interesting I think and a trip up to Newcastle will be needed in the not too distant future.
                                  Last edited by JBee; 18-01-08, 15:36.



                                  Researching Irish families: FARMER, McBRIDE McQUADE, McQUAID, KIRK, SANDS/SANAHAN (Cork), BARR,

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Thanks for the info., JBee. It's good to know where to look. It's very unlikely I'll be in that area, having no close living relatives there.
                                    Uncle John - Passed away March 2020

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                                    • #19
                                      If you send me details I'll have a look whilst I'm there. Mind you don't know when I'll get up there on a weekday.



                                      Researching Irish families: FARMER, McBRIDE McQUADE, McQUAID, KIRK, SANDS/SANAHAN (Cork), BARR,

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                                      • #20
                                        PM sent, thank you.
                                        Uncle John - Passed away March 2020

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