Looks like I'll have to give up!!!

[Cath RJ]

1901 census gives my grandmother as Lilian Graham, 25, born Oxford, wife of Thomas Graham and living in Bury, Lancs.

All their childrens' birth cert. give her maiden name as Lilian Augusta Harris.

No marriage for them has ever been found.

1891 Lilley Harris, 15, b. St. Clements Oxfordshire, Neice, St Pancras. (head Arthur Smith.) ??????

1881 no trace at all.

1874 birth cert. for Lily Augusta Wall Harris. Oxford Workhouse, Headington, sub district St. Clement. Mother Emily Jane Harris. Father unnamed.

Oxfordshire records office have searched poor law/workhouse records for both Lily and Emily Jane ( they looked at surname Wall too) and came up with nothing. Also same results in baptism records for the workhouse and nearby parishes.

This really does look like the end of the trail unless you know differently....

Cath
:(:(

[KiteRunner]

Looks as if the uncle on the 1891 census would be the best lead to follow. Never give up!

[Cath RJ]

Thanks for reply KR. Uncle Arthur SMITH (!) appears to have married Caroline Brimfield and I've been down that route too with no success.

[KiteRunner]

Oh, just realised - are you just saying that you will have to give up trying to find out who her father was? Looking at the 1891 census I see that Arthur Smith's wife Caroline was born in Oxfordshire, so I would guess that she might be Emily's sister. If that turns out to be the case, then it would give you a good lead to trace Emily's family back but you might be right about giving up on Lilian's father!

[Cath RJ]

I'm really trying to prove that Lily Augusta Wall Harris and Lilian Graham are the same person. I remember my late aunt saying that my grandfather called her "Gussy for short" because she was very small. She also told me she was born in Oxford.
I realise there's really no way of finding out who her father was but I'd love to find out about her mother's line if possible. (Mainly as we don't know who my mother's father was so there are huge gaps in my tree.

Cath

[KiteRunner]

There is a Caroline Brimfield birth registration Jun 1850 Bicester district (district includes Charlton-on-Otmoor), so at least it looks as if Brimfield was Caroline's maiden name and she wasn't a widow when she married Arthur Smith. So we could try looking for her on the earlier censuses to see if she had a sister called Emily - or another sister who married a Harris, which could at least prove that Lilley wasn't your Lilian. (It would be harder to look for Arthur Smith born York on the earlier censuses!) Of course, "niece" on the census can mean something vaguer so it might come to nothing.

[Cath RJ]

1901 Arthur Smith appears to be desc. But Caroline, abt. 1853, Oxfordshire has gained another niece Gertrude Clara Harris!!!! but so far I can't link her or any Brimfields to Lilian Augusta.

[KiteRunner]

Oh, that could be useful. I've been tracing her backwards so I hadn't looked at 1901 yet. There doesn't seem to be a sister Emily at all, but these are the Brimfield sisters apart from Caroline: Margaret, Ann/Annie, Clara and Catharine D. Now to see if any of them married a Harris...

[KiteRunner]

Okay, Clara Brimfield married Henry John Harris Mar 1872 Headington district (sorry, that's only a possible as there are two other names for the same page!).

[Merry Monty Montgomery]

Yes, Clara did:

Marriages Mar 1872
Brimfield Clara Headington 3a 699
Hanks Walter Nathaniel Headington 3a 699
Harris Henry John Headington 3a 699
Roberts Ellen Elizabeth Headington 3a 699

1881:


Henry J. HARRIS Head M 31 Barton Cab Driver
Clara HARRIS Wife M 28 Thrup
Charles J. HARRIS Son 8 Leighton, Buckingham Scholar
Lilian M. HARRIS Daur 4 Birmingham, Warwick Scholar
Minnie E. HARRIS Daur 2 Oxford, Oxford
Mabel G. HARRIS Daur e 7 m Oxford,
James WILKINSON Lodger U 35 Oxford College Servant

at 36 Plantation Rd, Oxford St Giles

[Merry Monty Montgomery]

So that means that Lilian in 1891 is a red herring?

[KiteRunner]

Looks like it to me, Merry.

[Cath RJ]

Hi Merry
Please can you see if Henry J Harris is on 1871 - maybe he's Emily Jane's brother and she's still with family since Lily Augusta wasn't born until 1874. Why do you think 1891 Lilley is a red herring?
Thanks,
Cath

[KiteRunner]

Cath, we think Lilley in 1891 is a red herring because her parents were Henry and Clara, so her mother couldn't be Emily. Also, although her birthplace was given as Oxford on the 1891 it said Birmingham in 1881, so most likely she was born in Birmingham but her uncle and aunt who she was staying with in 1891 got confused about her birthplace.

So, it looks as though Lilley, niece of Arthur Smith, is not your Lilian.

[Merry Monty Montgomery]

It took a bit of fiddling about to be certain I was loking at the same Henry!

He seems to be the first child of John Harris and Amelia (probably nee Hedges, m Q4 1849)

Henry John 1850
Amelia 1852
Betsy 1853
Carry 1857
Julia 1859

There are birth regs for all the above. The father, John Harris, is 33 in 1861.

Mother, Amelia seems to die in 1869.

Then ....I THINK this is the same family in 1871.....


John now 40 and where he was an ag lab before he is now a farmer of 100 acres.

Also the children are said to be born in Elsfield, when they were born in Headington on the 1861. However, they were living at Elsfield in 1861.....

Anyway, the remaining children are:

Emily aged 15 (is she Carry from the earlier census and birth reg?)
Julia 11
William 9
Edward 7
John 4

So, could Carry/Emily be Emily Jane? (if Carry and Emily are the same person at all, that is!)

[Merry Monty Montgomery]

Hmmm....maybe the above is wrong as there's this:

Deaths Q3 1865
Harris Carry Headington 3a 357

[Cath RJ]

Very many thanks ladies but I wonder if Lilian Augusta is Henry & Clara's niece as their Lilian has a different middle name. Maybe Emily Jane was Henry's sister which would make "mine" a niece of sorts to Arthur Smith and Caroline (nee Brimfield).

I'm pretty convinced that Lily Augusta Wall Harris and Lilian Graham are the same person but where is she between 1874 and 1901?!? Her place of birth is deff. Oxford St. Clements which ties in nicely with 1891. I know she existed - she's on my dad's birth cert. and I've got just one precious photgraph. All I need to do is link her mother to Henry John Harris - not much of a challenge hey?!

[Jean and Tonic]

I really sympathise Cath.......I'm having the same problem with my grandfather (who I never met because he was killed in 1930 )...... can't find proper birth, family or parents names.

Jean

[KiteRunner]

Cath, I really don't think there is any connection with that Lilley on the 1891 and your Lilian. Nor between your Lilian and Henry John Harris. If I were you I would forget about Henry and Clara etc at least for now and concentrate on what you know for sure about your Lilian and Emily. My guess would be that Wall might be the surname of Lilian's father, but it is a fairly common name so it could be very difficult to find the right man!

[Christine in Herts]

Presumably "WALL" is a supposed father's surname? or have I got my twickers in a knist over all this?!

Christine