Are these signatures by the same person?

[Just Gillian]

[IMG][/IMG]

The top one was on Canadian attestation papers of 1st April 1916. Next of kin was a Mrs A Fox.
The second one was on a marriage affidavit of 26th April 1916. Mother Agnes Fox.

There's a three year difference between dob at attestation and age given at marriage and the letter B seems quite different.

He died in France in 1918 but there is no next of kin listed on the CWGC site.

[Jennifer Eccles]

It Looks the same to me, looking at all the letters seperately, i would say its the same signature.

[Little Nell]

The er in Bert and the H look identical to me.

[yogihughes]

I would tend to agree that they are both by the same person.

[Just Gillian]

Thank you Jennifer, Nell and Yogi.

The name is Bert Fox, but I have no idea if that was a common way of writing F's in Canada at that time.

[Little Nell]

Oh, just re-read your message. I thought surname began with H as that's exactly how I sign my name!

[Just Gillian]

Nell - if I'd come across the signature before the transcription, I would have been looking for a Bert Hoy.

[Jilly McMad]

i'd say they were the same signature

xx

[Just Gillian]

Thanks Jilly

[Christine in Herts]

The letter-shapes are all very similar; the slope of the signature is the same; the joins of the letters seem to be the same. I'd say that the differences could easily arise from just being written on different occasions. It would be more suspicious if they looked much more alike!

As for the DoB: was there any incentive to be one age or the other on one or other occasion?

I have instances of my paternal grandfather shedding six years from time to time - as well as the wife and family!

Christine

[Olde Crone Holden]

Wonder if the name was rendered down from ffoulkes? This might explain the funny F...was originally two small ff, then someone learned that surnames should begin with a capital letter, but was reluctant to let go of the two ff!

OC

[Just Gillian]

As for the DoB: was there any incentive to be one age or the other on one or other occasion?

I have instances of my paternal grandfather shedding six years from time to time - as well as the wife and family!

Christine

Thanks Christine.
On re-examining the very faded marriage affidavit, the age difference was actually two years, not three. His dob at attestation made him 21 and his given age at marriage was 23. I didn't find a Canadian birth registration under Bert*, Robert or Albert although he stated he was born in Ontario.

OC - that may be a possibility. The religion was Presbyterian so I'm thinking it most likely that he was of Scottish origin.

[Len of the Chilterns]

I would say that the only difference is that the first was written using a normal steel nib and the second was done with a softer "relief" nib.

I am old enough to remember using both as a school-boy (before the invention of ball pens) and the same difference is evidenced in my old school books.

I wonder if your ancester was told the same as me, when he was at school: "Boy, what you do with a pen on paper can hardly be called writing".

[Just Gillian]

Len - I am old enough to remember being forced by the nuns to keep my left hand behind my back while I attempted to write with my right! Fortunately, it makes a great excuse for my lifelong atrocious handwriting. But I do, at least, manage to write on the line unlike poor Bert.

That is an interesting point (pardon the pun) about the nibs. I've not heard of "relief" nibs before - I'll go and have a google.

Re your master's comment - teachers didn't pull their punches back then did they?

[Richard in Perth]

The CWGC site lists his name as B F Fox - so maybe the "double F" in the signature includes his middle initial?

CWGC :: Casualty Details

[Richard in Perth]

There's a Bert Fox with mother Agnes on the 1901 Canadian census. That Bert has dob of 17-Mar-1894 (half way between the two ages that you have!):

Automated Genealogy 1901 Census Transcription Project

District: ON SIMCOE (East/Est) (#113)
Subdistrict: Orillia (Town/Ville) I-3 Page 16

28 156 Fox James M Head M Jan 1 1867 34
29 156 Fox Agnes F Wife M Oct 15 1877 23
30 156 Fox Isabella F Daughter S Jan 24 1890 11
31 156 Fox James M Son S Feb 15 1893 9
32 156 Fox Bert M Son S Mar 17 1894 7
33 156 Fox William M Son S Apr 10 1897 4
34 156 Fox Roland M Son S Dec 15 1898 3

[Richard in Perth]

If this is the same family in 1911, then they weren't too good at dates of birth!!:

http://automatedgenealogy.com/census11/View.jsp?id=57851&highlight=14&desc=1911+Census+of+Canada+page+containing+Albert+Fox

10 28 Fox James M Head M Jan 1884 27
11 28 Fox Agnes F Wife M May 1875 36
12 28 Fox Bella F Daughter S Feb 1888 22
13 28 Fox James M Son S Jan 1891 20
14 28 Fox Albert M Son S Oct 1892 18
19 28 Fox Willie M Son S Feb 1895 16
20 28 Fox Rolland M Son S Jun 1896 14


(on the image, father James was actually aged 47. They were presbyterian).

[Just Gillian]

lolol Richard! What did they do? Just pick a number? They haven't even got the same year for any of them, let alone day and month.

Thank you for the census information and I like the possible explanation of the double F.

On balance I'm inclined to think all the Berts are the same.

[Uncle John]

Len - I am old enough to remember being forced by the nuns to keep my left hand behind my back while I attempted to write with my right! Fortunately, it makes a great excuse for my lifelong atrocious handwriting. But I do, at least, manage to write on the line unlike poor Bert.

I was allowed to write left-handed. But it was only years later that I found out there are left and right handed nibs. That was why my nib constantly dug into the paper. And of course my little finger dragged in the wet ink. i'm sure that's why many left-handers write round-armed.

[Len of the Chilterns]

Len - I am old enough to remember being forced by the nuns to keep my left hand behind my back while I attempted to write with my right! Fortunately, it makes a great excuse for my lifelong atrocious handwriting. But I do, at least, manage to write on the line unlike poor Bert.

That is an interesting point (pardon the pun) about the nibs. I've not heard of "relief" nibs before - I'll go and have a google.

Re your master's comment - teachers didn't pull their punches back then did they?

Gillian
I went to a grammar school in North London called "Trinity". I was put off before I even started there. The fearsome head, Dr Emrys E Jones, in mortar board and gown, addressing a meeting of parents with prospective pupils, opened his address with "I believe in corporal punishment. If you do not, now is the time to take your child away". I can recall his exact words after 71 years. Fortunately, I remember much else too - some of it useful..