James Laurie born abt 1683-4 (Edinburgh)

[KiteRunner]

This is going to be one of those long ones, so I apologise! First, just to say, please nobody use any credits to look anything up for this one.

My ancestor James Laurie (variants include Lawrie, Laury, Lawry, Lowrie, Lowry) was a tanner in Westport / Portsburgh, Edinburgh. He married Margaret More (Mor, Moore, Muir, Mur, Mow, Moir) 3rd March 1709. He is buried at St. Cuthbert's with the following memorial inscription:

"Here lyes James Lawrie, tanner in Portsburgh, who died 17th February 1732, aged 48 years, and eight of his children who died young; also Thomas Crichton, stabler, burgess of Edinburgh, both husbands to Margaret More, died 28th March ___ aged ___ years."

I have downloaded a copy of his Testament Dative and Inventory dated 2nd Aug 1732 which only names Margaret Moor, and doesn't mention names of children. But anyway, these are the baptisms I have found, with names of witnesses:

Mary 31 Aug 1710 Bailly Joseph Thomson and James Esplin tanners in Westport.
Joseph 30 Dec 1711 Baillie Joseph Thomson & James Esplin Tanners in Westport.
Bettie 7 Dec 1716 Robert Esplin and Peter Cowie, both tanners in Westport.
Margaret 4 Nov 1720 James Forrest freeman cordwainer and William Henderson merchant in Portsburgh.
Janet 3 Feb 1723 Archd. Cleeland currier and Alexr Thomson indweller in Portsburgh
Thomas 23 Sep 1725 James Esplin tanner and George Russell currier in Portsburgh.
James 15 Jan 1727 James Esplin, tanner, burgess, and Alexander Thomson indweller in Portsburgh.
Thomas 25 May 1729 James Esplin tanner and ferver(?) in Portsburgh and William Henderson merchant in Portsburgh.
Janet 20 Sep 1730 Thomas Henderson merchant and Jn Mam (?) armourer.
James 12 Jun 1732 (father deceased) Mr. Thos. Henderson Mert. & Thomas Chrighton stabler

The Hendersons were relatives of Margaret's and she later married Thomas Chrighton, but hopefully some of the other witnesses might be relatives of James.

There are a few possible baptisms for James but none of them looks definitely right. 2 Apr 1682, parents Thomas Laurie and Rebecca Buchanan; 29 Apr 1683 at Liberton, parents William Lowrie and Margaret Lowrie; 9 Mar 1684 parents James Lowrie and Bessie Gray; 12 Jun 1685 parents James Lowrie, baxter, and Marion Paterson.

So, I'm trying to figure out which of these, if any, is my James. He doesn't seem to have been a burgess, unfortunately, which might have helped me figure it out.

And does anybody know whether Baillie / Bailly would be part of somebody's name, or some kind of title?

[Olde Crone Holden]

I would think Baillie is his title, rather than his name, because it comes first.

Can't help with James' parents, other than to suggest you try to match up all the couples and their children in a similar way, i.e., by witness and occupation!

OC

[KiteRunner]

The baptisms that far back don't all have as much info on them as the 18th century ones, but none of the James Laurie ones I listed have a father who was a tanner or any of the same names as witnesses as my James did for his childre's baptisms. If I started looking up baptisms of other children to those sets of parents it would cost a fortune! Also, I'm not really convinced that my James belonged to any of them because none of them match the names of his eldest children. I just seem to go round in circles with this lot!

[Merry Monty Montgomery]

bailie = n. A municipal officer in Scotland.

[KiteRunner]

Oh, right. So I wonder if he was a relative or just liked to appear as witness like those English parish clerks did?

[Olde Crone Holden]

Kate

Is this PR not available via the LDS? You could play with it to your heart's content, then!

OC

[KiteRunner]

Um, er, maybe, but I'm sorry to say that I've only been to my local one once and it was such a palaver getting there and back, plus the fact that I would have to book a microfilm reader in advance (and a lot of the microfilms are stored too high for me to reach, above people's heads!) that I have never managed to get it together to go back again. But anyway, those James Laurie baptisms I am trying to choose from are not all from the same parish so it would take quite a few trips, I should think.

[BigShaz McCreadie]

Do you know who Margaret's parents were? Or where Margaret was born?

Just a thought there seems to be 2 marriages for James and Margaret.... one in Feb and one in March.
Might be coincidence but....

I was wondering if these two were from different parishes and the banns went up in both as the marriages I found were two different parishes.
One Edinburgh Parish, Midlothian and the other St Cuthberts, Midlothian.

So I'm wondering if your James came from Edinburgh Parish and Margaret from St Cuthberts.

*Trying to type while on phone* :D

[KiteRunner]

Margaret's father was John Moor, a brewer and burgess. Her mother was Margaret Nicolson. They married 5th June 1685. After John Moor died, Margaret Nicolson married Thomas Henderson (22 Aug 1701).

[BigShaz McCreadie]

Kind of blows my theory out of the water then.

I see Margaret had a child to Thomas Crichton in 1936.

[KiteRunner]

Blimey, she would have been one old lady by then, Shaz! She did have a child by him in 1736, though...

I don't really understand this parish of Edinburgh thing, to be honest, but for their marriage entry, James Laurie is in W. K. p (= West Kirk parish) and Margaret More in S. W. p (South West Kirk parish), according to the Edinburgh Marriage Register book.

Thanks for your help.

[Uncle John]

Just a thought there seems to be 2 marriages for James and Margaret.... one in Feb and one in March.
Might be coincidence but....

I was wondering if these two were from different parishes and the banns went up in both as the marriages I found were two different parishes.
One Edinburgh Parish, Midlothian and the other St Cuthberts, Midlothian.

So I'm wondering if your James came from Edinburgh Parish and Margaret from St Cuthberts.

It ain't necessarily so. I have a couple whose banns were read in their "home" churches in Dundee and Dumbarton shortly before they married in Dumbarton. You need to distinguish between the banns date and the marriage date. There are 3 distinct entries in the IGI.

[BigShaz McCreadie]

Blimey, she would have been one old lady by then, Shaz! She did have a child by him in 1736, though...

I don't really understand this parish of Edinburgh thing, to be honest, but for their marriage entry, James Laurie is in W. K. p (= West Kirk parish) and Margaret More in S. W. p (South West Kirk parish), according to the Edinburgh Marriage Register book.

Thanks for your help.

:D Just realised my mistake... Sorry about that :D

It ain't necessarily so. I have a couple whose banns were read in their "home" churches in Dundee and Dumbarton shortly before they married in Dumbarton. You need to distinguish between the banns date and the marriage date. There are 3 distinct entries in the IGI.

I can only see two entries for James Lawrie and Margaret More both for different parishes. Why would the Bann's be read in one church and then they marry in another?

There must be one missing....

[Uncle John]

They would have the banns read in the church they attended. In this case wifey was still living in Dundee with her parents while hubby had emigrated to Dumbarton to find work.

[KiteRunner]

13 Feb 1709 would be the date of proclamation, if I am reading the explanation at the front of the Register of Marriages right, and the OPR entry I have downloaded from Scotland's People has the date 10th February above it, then there is a little "3d March" written in the middle of the entry, so I think the 10th and the 13th of Feb are the dates of banns and the 3rd of March was the date they actually got married. But as for who James's parents were, maybe I'll have to leave that for now!

[KiteRunner]

Oh, I just remembered to look in Google Book Search (though of course with so many variants of names it's easy to miss stuff in there!) and I have found this snippet about Bailly Joseph Thomson:
Joseph Thomson, tanner, is elected gate bailie of Wester Portsburgh

I'm coming to the conclusion that James Laurie didn't have any living relatives apart from his wife and his two surviving children, because I downloaded his son Joseph's testament dative and the executrix was the other surviving child, Janet (my ancestor), who was his nearest of kin at age 16! She had two curators - her mother and Andrew Mirrilies, a tanner in Leith, and by the time I got to the end of the document the mother was the only curator. I can't see a family connection with Andrew Mirrilies either. Anyway, I'm going to have fun looking for stuff about tanners in Portsburgh / Westport etc on Google Book Search now...

[BigShaz McCreadie]

Hello Again

This is probably of no help whatsoever but I have been searching high and low :D if this is useless then disregard totally (which of course you will)

I have found a marriage between a William Henderson and a Bessie Laurie in Midlothian 1730.

I know Henderson is a popular name as is Laurie but I thought I'd mention it anyway. Only because of Margaret's links to Henderson's and the fact that a William Henderson was a witness at the 1729 baptism.

[KiteRunner]

Thanks, Shaz, but I've found loads of things like that and got nowhere with them!! My Bettie Laurie born 1716 must be one of the eight children who died young, so it can't be her. Probably just a coincidence. Joseph Laurie married a Margaret McLellan whose mother was a Helen Laurie, and I haven't managed to find any connection between her and James! I was sure she would turn out to be his sister, but it seems not.

[BigShaz McCreadie]

Have you had a look at this??

ScotsFind Scottish Genealogy

You just never know what you might find You've got me hooked on these Lauries and they're not even mine :D

[KiteRunner]

Yes thanks, Shaz, I've downloaded loads of stuff from that site - Roll of Edinburgh Burgesses, Edinburgh Marriage Register, etc. I think that's part of my problem - every new witness's name I get, I have to look him up in every different book I've downloaded!