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View Full Version : John S Mussell Should be dead !!!!



Sheila from Down Under
28-12-07, 03:40
Hello Voilet M E Handscomb married in the July Quarter of 1947 Bishop's Stortford ,Vol 4b Page 66 but when I checked Mussell John S he married a Baker or Handscomb it showed vol 4b page 56 so I do not understand , as far as I know both people are now dead, John should have died just after WW2 (according to family lore) but I cannot find him anywhere Can you please Help
Sheila

WendyP
28-12-07, 07:45
HI


Just had a look to see what you mean and I saw John S Mussell reference read the same as Violet on that marrige entry that being 66.

WendyP
28-12-07, 07:49
HI


Just had a look to see what you mean and I saw John S Mussell reference read the same as Violet on that marrige entry that being 66. And yes it did show Baker or Handscomb.


So I checked surname Baker for the smae year and quarter and found this


Violet M Baker marrying a Mussell in the same district but with the other Ref of 4b page 56


Maybe whoever was copying the indexes up to the original records simply made a mistake.

Sheila from Down Under
28-12-07, 08:15
Thank you for that Wendy. I have still not been able to find his death, or hers, for that matter
Sheila

Jessbowbag
28-12-07, 10:11
did they have any children - trying to narrow down search field for his death.

family lore says he died just after WW2- does it remember where or in what circumstances?

Merry Monty Montgomery
28-12-07, 10:55
The two surnames for Violet would normally mean one was her maiden name an the other her previous married surname. They did this for a few decades during the 20th C. Can't explain the variable page number though. Probably a repeated copying mistake.

Sheila from Down Under
28-12-07, 22:05
John and Violet had 1 daughter born in Brighton in 1950,as far as I have learnt, I was told that he , John " Gas himself in the over just after the war") My Aunt who is in her mid 80's wants to know what happened to Violet after John's death as there have lost touch, and her reasoning is-- I and You all found them--, finding what happened to John & Violet should be " a walk in the park " Ha!!! Ha !!! So I must find John's death so as I can track Violet
Sheila

Jessbowbag
28-12-07, 22:13
ok, got the daughter, Q2 1950 brighton - the tuneful one!

is this too obvious?

Violet Mabel Mussell
born 1 Aug 1906
died Aug 1996
Age 90
in Hove , Sussex

Register number: 79C
Entry Number: 247

Sheila from Down Under
28-12-07, 22:17
Jess Thats right
Sheila

Jessbowbag
28-12-07, 22:19
that is it, is it? her death - the right death?

Jessbowbag
28-12-07, 22:33
wasn't a John Sydney, was he?

1952/1

Sheila from Down Under
28-12-07, 22:35
I does look right BUT I have her as Violet M E Handscomb born April 1926. her mum & dad were Albert Victor Eaton Hanscomb and Violet M E Bailey married 30 Aug : 1911 in Battersea ,I do have their wedding lines from the GRO so back to you what do you think??? could you find John S death ?
Sheila
P S Sorry I took so long the cat sat on the mouse
Sheila

Sheila from Down Under
28-12-07, 22:36
Could be Jess I know nothing about him
Sheila

Jessbowbag
28-12-07, 22:44
i'm still looking

have gone up to end of 1955, and I cant see it, so if it was *just after the war* its wasn't very **just after**

Jools in Scarborough
28-12-07, 22:46
Jess - longshot - there is a John A. in q2/1950, age 51 Liverpool N 10d/255.
I'll do 1959 and 1960.
Jools

Jessbowbag
28-12-07, 22:47
if you know for certain that the daughter born in 1950 was the one i found, you might be better looking for her marriage.

Jools - there are odd deaths for johns around the country ,in the years that i have searched - i formed the asumption that as whtai thought was his wife had died in Hove, and the daugh was born in Brighton, that he'd have died in that neck of the woods.

Jools in Scarborough
28-12-07, 22:48
Aha - is this a possible?

q3/1960 MUSSELL Stanley J age 40 Aldershot 6b/27

UPDATE - no other likely candidates in 1960 OR 1959.

Sheila - when was the elusive John S born?

Merry Monty Montgomery
28-12-07, 22:48
So are we saying Violet was only 21 when she married John Mussell, but she had already been married once?

Jools in Scarborough
28-12-07, 23:02
Hang on a mo!! If (as Sheila says)

Violet M E Handscomb born April 1926

then
Violet Mabel Mussell
born 1 Aug 1906
died Aug 1996
Age 90
in Hove , Sussex
surely can't be her :confused::confused:

Sheila from Down Under
28-12-07, 23:03
John S Mussell born 1913 in Styning that all I have as that is the only John S around
Sheila

Jessbowbag
28-12-07, 23:03
Merry

Sheila seems to have her down as born with that surname HANDSCOMB.

Sheila - that would be rational - Steyning is just outside Brighton.

Jessbowbag
28-12-07, 23:06
Hang on a mo!! If (as Sheila says)

Violet M E Handscomb born April 1926 <<<<<< Where has that come from??

then
Violet Mabel Mussell
born 1 Aug 1906
died Aug 1996
Age 90
in Hove , Sussex
surely can't be her :confused::confused:

im confused

Jools in Scarborough
28-12-07, 23:10
im confused

Violet M E Handscomb born April 1926 <<<<<< Where has that come from??

JESS - Message no 12 in this thread!! Jools

Want to share a headache pill with me Jess??

Jessbowbag
28-12-07, 23:12
do you actually have the marriage cert for the bishops stortford wedding?

Jools , Jools, Jools, yes i realise that , BUT I meant , where did it come from originally? Arggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

Jools in Scarborough
28-12-07, 23:15
Jools , Jools, Jools, yes i realise that , BUT I meant , where did it come from originally? Arggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

Pass - and of course we can't double check year since ancestry births currently have indigestion. *goes for pill and lie down ***

Jessbowbag
28-12-07, 23:15
hang on , hang on, have I lost the plot?

Marriages Sep 1911

BAILEY Rose F Wandsworth 1d 1300
Barrell Lillian M Wandsworth 1d 1300
Handscomb Albert V E Wandsworth 1d 1300
Wickens William H Wandsworth 1d 1300

is this the marriage you mean Sheila - her parents marriage?

Merry Monty Montgomery
28-12-07, 23:18
Merry

Sheila seems to have her down as born with that surname HANDSCOMB.

Sheila - that would be rational - Steyning is just outside Brighton.

Yes, but didn't she also marry a Mr Baker?? (see the original post)

Jools in Scarborough
28-12-07, 23:18
Don't think so Jess. Sheila's message 12 has that year - I think (hope) she's put Violet M instead of Rose F.

Jessbowbag
28-12-07, 23:19
Beeble beeble * I want to be tree*

Jools in Scarborough
28-12-07, 23:20
Beeble beeble * I want to be tree*

ROFLMAO :cool::cool:

Jessbowbag
28-12-07, 23:23
so ,
we think she was born Handscome, married a Baker ( a Mr Baker rather than a bloke that makes bread) he shuffled off , she went back to her maiden name and married the Mussell man? ( thats not an especially strong man, nor a shellfish)

Jools in Scarborough
28-12-07, 23:27
Care to join me Jess?

http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:sKY1zTkbjwcydM:http://www.renaultforums.co.uk/attachments/general-chat/1886d1167049124-care-join-me-lambrini.jpg

Merry Monty Montgomery
28-12-07, 23:28
Yes, but she was only 21!! I very much doubt she was divorced (you couldn't divorce for a few years after marriage - reduced to a year around the time I was divorced, I think). So she might have been a war widow (or an ordinary widow, of course). She may have married in the name Baker and the indexer picked up her maiden name from her father's details on the cert??

Jessbowbag
28-12-07, 23:31
Dunno anymore- so tired I'm not able to focus.

Off to stick my head in the oven like John, I think. Actually, I'll just go to bed and try this again tommorow if you havent cracked it.

I'd started tracking the marriage of the 'Melodious' daughter- think i got part way thru 1970 before ancestry got grumpy

Jools in Scarborough
28-12-07, 23:53
The birth - from ancestry
AMJ 1926 HANDSCOMB Violet M E mmn BAILEY Croydon 2a/403

Marriage
JAS 1947 HANDSCOMB Violet M to MUSSELL B Stortford 4b/66
JAS 1947 MUSSELL John S to BAKER or HANDSCOMB B Stortford 4b/66

UPDATE: I have just checked all the HANDSCOMB(E) marriages from 1940 through 1946 - not a sausage for Violet.

Jessbowbag
28-12-07, 23:58
I wonder why on earth - havent gone to bed quite yet- if they then went down to Brighton to live - why they married in Hertfordshire?

Jessbowbag
29-12-07, 00:08
Right - the tuneful daughter married in Q1 1974 , in Brighton to a
AV G*******

Note to self:
Buried nor cremated

Merry Monty Montgomery
29-12-07, 00:16
I've searched 1941 - 1947 inc looking for a marriage for Violet to a Mr Baker, without any luck.

Merry Monty Montgomery
29-12-07, 00:19
Oops, I see Jools already did that! pmsl!! (I am watching a film at the same time!)

Jessbowbag
29-12-07, 00:20
Of course the daughter doesnt appear in her married name on 192.com - its distinctive enough too

Merry Monty Montgomery
29-12-07, 00:27
Jess, Have you tried for a remarriage after 1983??

Jessbowbag
29-12-07, 00:32
no - was looking for birth to the daughter & her husband- nowt upto end 76

boy with the rope has appeared now!

no, the daughter - with the tuneful name - doesn't appear to re-marry84-2004

Merry Monty Montgomery
29-12-07, 00:39
No remarriage for tuneful or her OH after 1983. No death for tuneful (didn't check OH)

Sheila from Down Under
29-12-07, 00:41
Help :confused:I'll join you Jool's and it is only 9.30 am. in North Queensland. Why can't my family be normal ??? this is the 3rd or 4th time I've had to come to you all for help. And I thought it would be fun to have a real family with a real family tree pmsl..:o
I will take a hard copy of all that's on the thread, have a cuppa and read while you all sleep "up there ". Thanks again I'll wait for tonight my time with baited breath
Sheila :)

Merry Monty Montgomery
29-12-07, 00:44
Oh, if you google her name (tuneful) you will find her!

Sheila from Down Under
29-12-07, 01:01
O K there we go This is what I know :o

Rose Frances Bailey( My Great Aunt ) married Albert Victor Eaton Handscomb in Wandsworth in 1911 I have the GRO Copy of Marriage they had 4 children
Rose in 1911 ( they JUST you down the aisle )
Kenneth 1922
Cyril 1923
Violet 1926 She married John S Mussell in Bishop's Strotford in 1947
there is a "Tuneful" Daughter "
But it is John S Mussell I wanted to find his death, to see if Violet married again

I'll try to Google Merry

Sheila

Sheila from Down Under
29-12-07, 01:05
Merry I have pm'ed you

Sheila from Down Under
29-12-07, 04:23
Jess What do you mean in Link 11 about John Sydney ????

AND I am sorry to say I have checked BMD for 1905 1906 1907 and there was NOT a Handscomb listed the we want that can not be her SORRY This is why I would like to find John S, :o
Sheila

Jessbowbag
29-12-07, 10:06
We'd all like to find John *Blessed* S - we cant.....

is there anyone at all that you can prod for more info?

anyone around that might have gone to the funeral - if so - was the daughter there? how sort of old?

Even if we find he died in , lets say 1961- that wont tell you if she remarried.

I'm seriously starting to think that ''gassed himself' is a euphamism for 'ran off with his lady friend'

Have you got access to ancestry Sheila?

Jessbowbag
29-12-07, 10:24
getting desperate here!
Deaths

1948-
q1-none
q2-no males
q3 - no males
q4 Walter J age 71 new forest

1949
Q2 Charles - I o W/ Ernest - Surrey N
Q3 No males - but a May - Hove ( Edith , Ellen & Jane)
Q4 Amelia

1950
Q1 Ernest salisbury
q2 Bertha/George/John -age 51 liverpool
q3 Florence /Henry/ Mary
q4 Athur/Herbert

1951

Sheila from Down Under
29-12-07, 10:27
Good Morning Jess, While you were in the "land of Nod " OH and I tried for find out what we could and the Violet Mussell that was listed was not the right one as, I BMD "ed 1905-06-07 and there was not a Handscomb that we want, so that was wrong, there seems to be at last 12/13 years differance in age between John and Violet,we have looked BMD from 1947 until 1963 for death of both , it looks as if they could be still alive, but if John S was born 1913 I do'nt think he could be
I think that is it Off to watch TV for 1 hour
Sheila

Jessbowbag
29-12-07, 10:32
I thought they were both deffo dead?

Well, Tuneful daughters husband seems to be alive and kicking, and selling glass in Hove - there is even a telephone number if you want it

and he is on a GR tree.

Jessbowbag
29-12-07, 11:05
Sheila - you know so little about either of them, its almost hopeless - we seem to be guessing all the time!

do you have the 1947(?) wedding cert?where V marries J?

I dont understand why your Violet-born Croyden & John - supposed born Sussex , married in Herfordshire

Sheila from Down Under
29-12-07, 11:43
Jess Albert Victor Eaton Handscomb Born 1888 died 1951
Rose F M Bailey Born 1891 died 1967
Married 30 Aug : Wandsworth 1911
they had 4 children Rose F M. Born 1911
Kenneth W A. born 1922
Cyril V. born 1923 and
Violet M E. born 1926 that is them
I will now go onto GR to see if I can find Tuneful's husband. I wish us all luck
Sheila:cool:

Sheila from Down Under
29-12-07, 12:34
I am as in the dark as you, I have just been " over the road " and contacted a couple of people with tuneful's married name, so I'll see what happens. I think you could be right about John S and his euphemism , it sound right for my family 3 only just got up the ailes in time and 1 the water was boiling by the time she came back down . 1 left and ran away with the Romany gipsy , 2 were at the Old Bailey and whipped for a crime, so you see Jess I would put nothing past my lot pmsl
Sheila

Jessbowbag
29-12-07, 12:41
did you contact the Anthony that i guess is her husband?

Sheila from Down Under
29-12-07, 13:12
Yes I did Jess, along with 3 others with tuneful's surname I'll let you know the outcome

It is now10.30 Down under so I am off to bed Thank you very much for your help
Sheila

Jessbowbag
29-12-07, 13:26
Her Married name or maiden name?

Sheila from Down Under
29-12-07, 13:36
Sorry I do not understand Jess I made contact under her husbands name ,is that what you mean ???
S

Jessbowbag
29-12-07, 18:22
fact - violet didnt re-marry in the name of Mussell , well, not in England anyway - she may have used her maiden/or first married name, but have checked from 1948>>>> 2004 not one marriage for a Violet Mussell

Sheila from Down Under
29-12-07, 22:28
Thank you Jess. I have had a reply about Tuneful 's Tony ? it was not him as he opened his tree to me but with 3 people on it , it was hard to tell if not for his e-mail . I will send the rest of my day thinking what to do next. I did find out from Croydon ( over night ) and that the comment about John and the gas oven came from Violet's brother, it was said to my Aunt in front of a room full of other people,my cousin remember it being said (she is 40 years old )when we do not know, so now it is fact ???:o
Sheila

Jessbowbag
29-12-07, 22:37
Or a story that is perpetuated as fact -:D

I just dont know any more.

I have looked and looked for re- marriages of Violet.
All the Mussell activity is very static geographically - in a belt from Surrey to Sussex coast/ a Bournemouth Blob/ Liverpool area /and a bit in Herefordshire.

Nothing in Hertfordshire except Your wedding - did you say you have the cert By The Way?

Merry Monty Montgomery
29-12-07, 22:58
Thank you Jess. I have had a reply about Tuneful 's Tony ? it was not him as he opened his tree to me but with 3 people on it , it was hard to tell if not for his e-mail . I will send the rest of my day thinking what to do next. I did find out from Croydon ( over night ) and that the comment about John and the gas oven came from Violet's brother, it was said to my Aunt in front of a room full of other people,my cousin remember it being said (she is 40 years old )when we do not know, so now it is fact ???:o
Sheila


Wasn't Tony only on the tree of someone called Anne or Anna? She didn't have his wife on her tree, so she may not know much...I didn't see him on his own tree.

Sheila from Down Under
30-12-07, 04:01
Jess Merry and all
I have found John Samuel Mussell born 14 Aug: 1913 died Brighton 1982 aged 69 Thank you all for the hard work you have put in for me But My Aunt still says he died that way so it is off to the GRO,,, Well next week I will
Merry ---- Tuneful's husband was not on GR but 3 or 4 other's from Brighton with the same name were, so I sent them a message
Sheila

Jessbowbag
30-12-07, 06:25
Jess Merry and all
I have found John Samuel Mussell born 14 Aug: 1913 died Brighton 1982 aged 69 Thank you all for the hard work you have put in for me But My Aunt still says he died that way so it is off to the GRO,,, Well next week I will
Merry ---- Tuneful's husband was not on GR but 3 or 4 other's from Brighton with the same name were, so I sent them a message
Sheila


He cannot have stuck his head in the oven and gassed himself-UK had natural gas by that time and it was impossible.

Just after the war then ...Falklands war maybe?

there was someone called Anna that had A------ G------- in her tree.

if your cousin was 20 odd,she'll remeber him dying I should think, not the story of how he died

Sheila from Down Under
30-12-07, 11:51
Hi Jess I am about to ring the UK so I will let you know what I can drag from them. No I have not got any of their certificates but I will. It should take about 2 weeks form the date I ask on line
Sheila

Pippa Doll
30-12-07, 12:47
I am not sure if this family story helps or not. We were told that one of our cousins was gassed in the war and sure enough when we checked in the nineties on the Commonwealth War Graves Site there was an entry stating that he had been gassed in the war as we expected. Further on in our research we found a marriage and a child by someone of the very same distinctive name. Now as there are only about 200 people in this country with this name descended from 1 person we thought it might be another cousin. Well all certs were ordered the family tree scrutinised and other relatives contacted. It turned out that it was this man and yes he had been gassed but had survived but was 'very simple' after the incident.

Jessbowbag
30-12-07, 12:50
But this bloke had a daughter with his wife in 1950, Pippa , so clearly he came home - must have done a flit then I suppose- shall be interested to hear the story , when eventually it evolves.
I do hope the right man is named as Violets father on the marriage cert, when eventually you get it

Jessbowbag
30-12-07, 13:00
I hate to fling an almighty spoke in the works or confuse the issue but.....

Name: Violet Mabel Handscombe
Year of Registration: 1907
Quarter of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep
District: Bishops Stortford
County: Essex, Hertfordshire
Volume: 3a
Page: 760

far more likely to have married in Bishops Stortford than your lady

possibility for this girls parents

Marriages Sep 1898

Bardwell William
Chesham Martha
Handscombe George
White Beatrice

B. Stortford 3a 945

Pippa Doll
30-12-07, 13:03
Another family story which just illustrates how the obvious gets changed over time. My Great Aunt's hubby Archie served in the war and was told that they had to amputate his leg. Now the story was that after his operation he couldn't cope anymore and his mental state reverted to that of a child even though he had 2 children of his own and my Great Grandfather basically supported the family financially even though they lived in London as well as his own family in Notts.

Well it turns out the reason that Archie couldn't cope was that he had an anesthetic and was put to sleep ready for the operation and then woke up with his leg still there. They had decided that it wasn't that bad and that they would do him a favour by not amputating the leg. Unfortunately Archie could never come to terms with the fact that it was still there and thought he was hallucinating. He spent the rest of his days playing with trains.

Now you would have thought that as a family story someone might have noticed that his leg was still attached before spreading it through the country?

Jessbowbag
30-12-07, 13:26
Does anyone know any of your Violet's brothers and sisters names?

( could be quite helpful if they do)

just for ref - in case - have time to spare anyway
1901- RG13; Piece: 1300; Folio: 188; Page: 20.
1891 - RG12; Piece: 1108; Folio 211; Page 27;
1881- RG11; Piece: 1421; Folio: 91; Page: 18;
1871- RG10; Piece: 1370; Folio: 108; Page: 38;
1861 -

Jessbowbag
30-12-07, 15:01
I'm obsessed!

Violet M Handscombe marries Frank W Baker = Bishops Stortford 1931 Q3

so somewhere between Q3 1931 and 1947 Frank either dies or clears off somewhere, so Violet can re-marry this Mussell man

Merry Monty Montgomery
30-12-07, 16:10
So Violet b 1926 must have married someone else, later than the Mussell marriage.

I didn't realise she could have married anyone.....I had presumed it was knowm that her husband was John Mussell, but there can't be two of them! lolol

So it's back to the indexes!!

Merry Monty Montgomery
30-12-07, 16:22
Here's the right one!!

1950 Q4 Handscomb Violet M E
married Robert H Flint
Croydon 5G 155

Jessbowbag
30-12-07, 16:36
Well done that woman

so Violet Handscomb Marries Frank Baker
then she marries Mr Mussell
The she marries Mr Flint

Do you know what? I searched every ( BEEP ) year for a remarriage EXCEPT 1950 , the very year she gave birth to Tuneful!
AH! Hang on

there is deffo a Violet Mabel Handscome born in Bishops Stortford in 1906 (?)

Is the 1926 ( Croyden?)one a different girl altogether?

Arghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

Hums a Hum.... Stands in the corner & Rocks a bit
Name: Violet Mary Flint
Birth Date: 6 Jun 1928
Death Registration Month/Year: Jul 1997
Age at death (estimated): 69
Registration district: Brighton
Inferred County: Sussex
Register number: B56A
Entry Number: 140


Jeepers creepers the fog is getting thicker! Why do we do this???

Merry Monty Montgomery
30-12-07, 16:49
No, no, no!!!

Sheila's Violet was b 1926 and married one man named Flint.

The other Violet was b 1906 and married twice and is nothing to do with Sheila

Well, that's what I think!!

Do we have to find a dau for Mr and Mrs Flint and a death in the oven for Robert Flint?

I have looked at births 1951-1955 inc and not found anything......(though I am being talked "at" all the time, so it's hard going!)

Jessbowbag
30-12-07, 16:53
No Idea, lost the plot completely.

didnt Sheila recognise the name Melody? ( Thereafter ''Tunefull'' :rolleyes:) she provided the info about where and when she was born...I think


Shouts for Sheila.................

Merry Monty Montgomery
30-12-07, 16:55
Do we know the dau was called tuneful? That would put a spanner in the works!

Do we need a Brighton obsession??

Merry Monty Montgomery
30-12-07, 16:56
Cross posted!

I don't know??? But the mother of tuneful was b 1906, I'm fairly sure of that!!

Jessbowbag
30-12-07, 17:04
when i asked for events to narrow the field to search for his death, Sheila said they had the daughter , 1950 in Brighton.

She is also adamant that her violet married in B/Stortford though

Merry Monty Montgomery
30-12-07, 17:11
If she's certain Mussell is the right family then Sheila needs to get the marriage cert, but as Mrs Mussell seems to have been married before to Mr Baker and you found the ref early in the 1930's I can't see how Violet could have been born in 1926?

We could look for a death for Mr Flint, I suppose. When did North Sea Gas come in? About 1968?

Mr Mussell can't have put his head in the oven, as you said before, Jess.

Jessbowbag
30-12-07, 18:44
refreshed - but not a lot.

wasn't the Violet (1)that married Mr Mussell the Nee Baker/Handthinggy one though? That is the only reason that I went looking for the marriage of a Violet to a mr Baker, cos Violet used both names when she married Mr Mussell. She must thus be the one born 190 whatever in Bishops Stortfold mustn't she.Hence tuneful cant be hers.

Violet (2) perhaps did just marry Mr Flint -

I think perhaps some squeezing of the facts has gone on here -to fit the name, supposing it was unique, whereas there were actually two girls of the same name.

No idea where Mr & Mrs Flint ended up , or what their daughter was called.

Right back to square one I think

Jessbowbag
30-12-07, 19:38
I am going to dream about these blessed Handcombs!
daughter ( seasonal song. A)
Croydon Q1/51

Right, going to give her 20 years, and start searching again for 5 years for HER marriage

WendyP
30-12-07, 19:40
H All


Well this one seems to have gone from bad to worse and back again

I think the certificate of the initial marriage that Sheila had the info for should be obtained to see that it clarifys what she knows to be so far true, ie the father name.


Either that or work backwards from the last known living person connected to the family that she has info about.


Or would that make matters even worse?


Mmm.....

Jessbowbag
30-12-07, 20:20
right , as far as i have got
all the correct spelling - ( no E on the end)
Omitted anyne with wrong middle initial but inc, those that didn't have one ( if you follow me)

67 Q3 = Kielecher = Oldham
70 Q2 = Davis = E.Ellow
70 Q3 = Hallett = Watford
71 Q4 = Roberts = Birkenhead
73 Q1 = Thorpe = Belper
74 Q2 = McPowell = Southport
75 Q2 = Mills = Romsey

Just as I was about to throw in the towel, totally exasperated!

marries Brotherwood in the right place Q3 77

(trebor)

WendyP
30-12-07, 20:33
HI All


Sorry if my post two above this one sounded negative. Jess and Merry you have worked endlessly to try and point Shiela in the right direction.


:o:o

Merry Monty Montgomery
30-12-07, 20:34
I agree that Sheila should get the Handscomb/Mussell marriage cert if she feels that is the right one. The problem with this is that this Violet M Hanscomb has had more than one surname already (the other one being Baker), yet Sheila says that Violet was only 21 when she married Mr Mussell. At least two people looked for a marriage to a Mr Baker in the previous five years, but found nothing.

HOWEVER, Jess went back much forther and DID find a marriage to a Mr Baker (I forget the date....early 1930's) Again the Violet in Q only has the one middle initial (M) and if this marriage has the same woman as the bride as the marriage to Mr Mussell, she can't have been born in 1926 as the first marriage is much too early. The birth in 1906 fits much better and there is a fitting death registration for Violet M Mussell aged 90.


The marriage I found in 1950 had the right middle initials (M E) and was in the same district as Violet M E Hanscomb was born in 1926.

The big problem is that I think Sheila already knew what surname she was looking for (Mussell).

Also John Mussell was supposed to have gassed himself, yet he died years after this was possible.

However, it looks as if Robert H Flint did die young:

1954 Q3 Robert H Flint Croydon 5g 104 (page number difficult to read) aged 31

Jessbowbag
30-12-07, 20:35
Thing is, Wendy I'm getting dizzy - start off down a trail and it all goes wibberley!

I'm getting a tad hysterical about it - I WILL find the blessed answer now!

merry - I am with Flint & the Croydon marriage - i think someone has started to look and things have 'fitted' and as i said, ''squeezed'' a bit to fit .

I have found the appropriate daughter in early 1950's too

Merry Monty Montgomery
30-12-07, 20:43
Is it possible the two Violet Hanscombs were cousins and two stories have got confused?

Jessbowbag
30-12-07, 20:44
dont even go there please!

have we had this BTW? being obsessed with Brighton , as I am!

Violet Mary Flint
Birth Date: 6 Jun 1928
Death Registration Month/Year: Jul 1997
Age at death (estimated): 69
Registration district: Brighton
Inferred County: Sussex
Register number: B56A
Entry Number: 140

Merry Monty Montgomery
30-12-07, 20:44
:):):):)

Merry Monty Montgomery
30-12-07, 20:49
I couldn't find a Flint child mmn Handscomb 1951-1955 inc, but did someone say the child was born in 1950????

Jessbowbag
30-12-07, 21:01
I Did

Q1 51

Merry Monty Montgomery
30-12-07, 21:03
Oooh, she isn't tuneful, is she??!

*goes to look*

I told you being "talked to" by my mum doesn't help doing lookups!

Merry Monty Montgomery
30-12-07, 21:04
Yo ho ho, so she was a Christmas 1950 baby???!!! Get it?

Jessbowbag
30-12-07, 21:11
Well, she is kinda tunefull too, we'll all her tuneful2 shall we ? NOT!

Got her marriage but cant see her on 192 before you go off on that route

Jessbowbag
30-12-07, 21:14
By the way, if you are just reading this thru , Merry & I do know what each other mean by the way. We are not talking in total riddles...well, only a bit

Merry Monty Montgomery
30-12-07, 21:16
How did you find her marriage so quickly??

I've never used 192!

Merry Monty Montgomery
30-12-07, 21:17
I do know what each other mean by the way.

I get you completely! lol

Jessbowbag
30-12-07, 21:33
I started at 1970 and just plodded thru

Merry Monty Montgomery
30-12-07, 21:41
How about looking for a second marriage after 1983?!

Jessbowbag
30-12-07, 21:42
yes Sir,
Right away Sir
Anything you say Sir

Jessbowbag
30-12-07, 21:45
it doesnt look like 'she that sings christmas songs'' has remarried

Potentially Trebor has, or of course it could be his son/namesake june 86

Merry Monty Montgomery
30-12-07, 22:07
Who is Trebor???

Pippa Doll
30-12-07, 22:11
Gosh you have been so busy!

Jessbowbag
30-12-07, 22:14
The backward mint....the groom of the daughter that sings at christmas

( yes i have totally lost it here)

Merry Monty Montgomery
30-12-07, 22:18
right , as far as i have got
all the correct spelling - ( no E on the end)
Omitted anyne with wrong middle initial but inc, those that didn't have one ( if you follow me)

67 Q3 = Kielecher = Oldham
70 Q2 = Davis = E.Ellow
70 Q3 = Hallett = Watford
71 Q4 = Roberts = Birkenhead
73 Q1 = Thorpe = Belper
74 Q2 = McPowell = Southport
75 Q2 = Mills = Romsey

Just as I was about to throw in the towel, totally exasperated!

marries Brotherwood in the right place Q3 77

(trebor)

I did see this post before, but I didn't understand it :confused:

Merry Monty Montgomery
30-12-07, 22:22
it doesnt look like 'she that sings christmas songs'' has remarried

Potentially Trebor has, or of course it could be his son/namesake june 86

I now understand this!!!!

Merry Monty Montgomery
30-12-07, 22:25
Thanks Jess, I have deleted your post but if Sheila should need the cryptic clues unravelled I can still send her the info easily, as, as a mod I can still get it back!!

Jessbowbag
30-12-07, 22:26
Good!
We can tell her properly off thread
Right shall I try a quick synopsis?

Merry Monty Montgomery
30-12-07, 22:34
Go on then!

Jessbowbag
30-12-07, 22:44
Come into my special corner in scad corner -have put it there without the play on words!

Work in prog
my workstation
#11

Merry Monty Montgomery
30-12-07, 22:45
Ok! :)

Lyn A
30-12-07, 23:01
Oh...that's not fair!!!

Just when I thought I was going to be enlightened as to whether I had correctly deciphered all this gibberish, you take it away to a secret corner!! LOL!!!

Looks like I am doomed to have this running around in my head taunting me forever!! LOL!!

PS. Great bit of sleuthing.... I just got so confused from the start, that I couldn't get anywhere. Well done!

Jessbowbag
30-12-07, 23:02
:D:D:p

Lyn A
30-12-07, 23:04
:D:D:p

You can laugh!!! :D

Jessbowbag
30-12-07, 23:08
ok lyn - for your party piece- attach the Violet Mary Handcomb born croydon to the violet Mabel handcomb born bishops stortford

Lyn A
30-12-07, 23:13
Oh, I had assumed that she was the illigitimate daughter that had been hidden away!! LOL!!

No, really, does there need to be a connection?

Jessbowbag
30-12-07, 23:14
No, but there probably is!

I'll see if i can see it anywhere obvious!
Violet M E Handscomb born April 1926. her mum & dad were Albert Victor Eaton Hanscomb and Violet M E Bailey married 30 Aug : 1911 in Battersea

birth
Albert Victor E Handscomb
1888
Jan-Feb-Mar
Wandsworth
Greater London, London, Surrey
1d /page 764

( mind the albert W born Bishops Stortford tho'!)

he'd have been a good one
Name: Coniston Handscomb

Estimated Birth Year: abt 1894
Year of Registration: 1894
Quarter of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar
Age at Death: 0
District: Wandsworth
County: Greater London, London, Surrey
Volume: 1d
Page: 475

there is a marjory Coniston Handcomb knocking about too 1895 ish

Lyn A
30-12-07, 23:21
It might be easier to wait for the 1911 census!!

Merry Monty Montgomery
30-12-07, 23:22
Won't we need a crystal ball for the father of the 1906 Violet?? :p

Jessbowbag
30-12-07, 23:24
Easier? Easier? We dont do the easy way here !! you lightweight!

i think i have cracked the 1906 one earlier - there only seems one lot in bishops Stot at the time of 1091 census #69

Merry Monty Montgomery
30-12-07, 23:33
i think i have cracked the 1906 one earlier - there only seems one lot in bishops Stot at the time of 1091 census #69

Huh?? I've got 35 Handscombs in Bishops Stortford district in 1901!

Jessbowbag
30-12-07, 23:36
dunno then - soory - there is a wonderfully named Coniston Handscomb knocking around born Wandsworth, he died, but a later Marjery Coniston Handscomb same district

Merry Monty Montgomery
30-12-07, 23:39
The grandfather of Albert V Handscomb b 1888 in Wandsworth was Charles Handscomb b abt 1816 in Marylebone, so not yet from the Bishops Stortford area. :(

Jessbowbag
30-12-07, 23:40
My OH wants to know if we are going to share the spoils when this is made into a movie!

Lyn A
30-12-07, 23:42
Easier? Easier? We dont do the easy way here !! you lightweight!

i think i have cracked the 1906 one earlier - there only seems one lot in bishops Stot at the time of 1091 census #69


I was looking at this one:

William F Handscomb, bc 1883, B. Stortford.....RG 13/1289/112/43. Parents John & Eliza.

Birth: Jun Qtr 1882, B. Stortford 3a / 398
Handscomb William Frederick

Marriages Jun Qtr 1905, B. Stortford 3a / 1053
William F Handscomb to either Ellen Claydon or Eliza Ann Mitchell.

Lyn A
30-12-07, 23:50
Oh then there is another marriage in Jun Qtr 1904 3a / 1103

Ernest Handscomb to either Florence Kate Andrews or Harriett Georgina Day.

Jessbowbag
30-12-07, 23:57
I think we'd better quit while we are ahead, dont you?

if anyone spots Sheila , tie her to the thread until the morning please, with a chunk of hairy string

Lyn A
31-12-07, 00:18
I can't see anything to tie the B. Stortford lot to Croydon.

Sheila from Down Under
31-12-07, 00:46
I think I can !!!! he may have been in the Army ??? were there any around that time 1947 ???? lol I know that there were around Wandsworth.
And I agree about the film, sound good any thoughts on the male lead ???
Sheila

Merry Monty Montgomery
31-12-07, 00:50
I think I can !!!! he may have been in the Army ???

Who may have been?

Sheila from Down Under
31-12-07, 01:03
:I have not not a clue, as I have spent the last 15 minute reading the ***** thread I am more confused then when I started I thought it was John Samuel Mussell born 1913---- Albert Victor Eaton Handscomb was his father-in-law . are you still talking about the tuneful daughter???:o :eek:
Sheila:o:

Merry Monty Montgomery
31-12-07, 01:05
I'm just about to go to bed, but the main things we need to know are:

Did you know your Violet's married name before the marriage to Mr Mussell was found?

And did you know Violets' daughter's first name?

Sheila from Down Under
31-12-07, 01:13
yes She was called Tuneful because she is still alive and living in Brighton (?)
Sheila

Merry Monty Montgomery
31-12-07, 01:16
So you knew her first name before all this research? Begining with M?

Sheila from Down Under
31-12-07, 01:21
I have not got the GRO certificate but yes that is what we hope ----M is right
Sheila

Merry Monty Montgomery
31-12-07, 01:25
Oh dear.

Because the name we have for the daughter of your Violet begins with C. Born 1950/51 (reg Q1 1951).

Anyway.....you can see it all on the thread.

Night, night!!

Sheila from Down Under
31-12-07, 01:28
GRO Marriage register July 1947 Handscomb Violet M to Mussell B.Strorford 4b 66
Same Qtr 1947 Mussell John S Baker or Handscomb B. Stortford 4b 66
Baker Violet M Mussell B.Strotford 4b 56
Seems strange---- OH want's to know if the typist up the occupation in by mistake??? (end of a rough shift ) But after my call to Croydon last night my Sainted Aunt's still think it is right ( not the Baker one )
Sheila:confused:

Lyn A
31-12-07, 04:08
GRO Marriage register July 1947 Handscomb Violet M to Mussell B.Strorford 4b 66
Same Qtr 1947 Mussell John S Baker or Handscomb B. Stortford 4b 66
Baker Violet M Mussell B.Strotford 4b 56
Seems strange---- OH want's to know if the typist up the occupation in by mistake??? (end of a rough shift ) But in my call to Croydon last night there was a family by that name who were close friend of Grandpa & Grandma so the plot thickens

Sheila:confused:

No Sheila, Violet was not a Baker by trade, that (Baker) is her name after her first marriage.
I do not think that this is your Violet.....she is too old.
Read what the others found for you!

How did you come up with the Mussell name?

Sheila from Down Under
31-12-07, 05:33
Lyn Trawling throught the GRO lists, but I am now so confused I think that I will have to be lead lol----- Has anyone found anyone other then John S Mussell she could have married ???
Sheila

Lyn A
31-12-07, 05:36
That is what I mean.....I don't think she married John Mussell at all....Did you only come up with that name after you trawled the BDM?

Sheila from Down Under
31-12-07, 06:16
YES as there was no body else Violet M E Handscomb did marry and Jess's link 119 is right, ---- according to the GRO free BMD that is a match both Mussell J and Handscomnb V M E have the some Vol 4b & page no 66 but now you are saying No ?????
Sheila

Lyn A
31-12-07, 06:29
YES as there was no body else Violet M E Handscomb did marry and Jess's link 119 is right, ---- according to the GRO free BMD that is a match both Mussell J and Handscomnb V M (No E) have the some Vol 4b & page no 66 but now you are saying No ?????
Sheila


So what about post #74.......

Violet M E Hanscomb marrying Robert H Flint in 1950 at Croydon?

Their child was born between Nov 1950 & Mar 1951 (I say Nov as a possibility because I have several certs where birth is in Nov, including my own dad, but not registered until the Mar Qtr the following year).

This one fits, but the one to John Mussell doesn't. (Violet would have only been 4 or 5 when she first married). There also apprears to be no connection (or none to be found) between the Croydon Handscombs & the Bishop Stortford ones.

Do you have Violet's birth Cert? or know her actual birthday?

If your aunt didn't know exactly who Violet married and the exact name of her child when you decided to search, I would discount the Mussell marriage & buy the Flint cert.

Sheila from Down Under
31-12-07, 06:54
She was born in 1926 the last of 4 children Aunt P said she was born mid April--- I have just had OH read the whole thread his words are un-printable lol --- I tend to agree with you ---I'll send away for and buy the Trebor one (I worked it out in the end ) but I will not discard John Mussell just yet
Sheila

Sheila from Down Under
31-12-07, 07:59
I have , within the last 10 mins: sent away to the GRO for the wedding certificate of Robert H Flint and Violet M E Handscomb as OH agrees with Lyn it is the more likley.. despatch date from GRO is 4 Jan 2008 snail mail takes 14 days to my part of OZ, so I must now wait.If it is not the right one then I will send for Mr. Mussell
Sheila

WendyP
31-12-07, 08:25
HI Sheila

I don't how you mangae to wait so long for a cert to arrive.

Did you add a check point to see if a father of brides name matched with what you know to be true?

Lyn A
31-12-07, 08:44
I have , within the last 10 mins: sent away to the GRO for the wedding certificate of Robert H Flint and Violet M E Handscomb as OH agrees with Lyn it is the more likley.. despatch date from GRO is 4 Jan 2008 snail mail takes 14 days to my part of OZ, so I must now wait.If it is not the right one then I will send for Mr. Mussell
Sheila

Fingers crossed then! But I didn't work it out...OC & Merry did! I just thought that all the info fitted better with Flint & their daughter & Trebor's death.....the Mussell one was too long after.
Then I just couldn't see why they would marry at Bishop Stortford. :confused:

Anyway, what made your OH swear?? LOL!! :D

Lyn A
31-12-07, 08:48
HI Sheila

I don't how you mangae to wait so long for a cert to arrive.



Tell me about it Wendy!!!
Thought I would shout myself some certs for Xmas. Ordered three on 4th Dec and they still haven't arrived!! Despatch 10th Dec! Still I may have to wait a while, yet....got a Chrissie card from England today...Post mark 6th Dec and sent Airmail. Certs come surface mail.

I suppose the upside is that Christmas is lasting a long time for me!! ;) :D :D

Sheila from Down Under
31-12-07, 08:52
Lyn the size of the thread he thought it was as long as the Bible LOL
When did Trebor die ??? Off to make dinner now before I am sacked LOL Have I wish
Sheila

Lyn A
31-12-07, 09:22
Lol!!!

Sep Qtr 1954...see post #87 (not M Tuneful, but a C Tuneful!! LOL!!)

Did you get their daughter's birth...post #83

and her marriage... post #85

Jessbowbag
31-12-07, 09:54
Sheila - are you still there?

If we put peoples names on here and they may still be alive, they get deleted.Hence we gave them nicknames so we knew who we were talking about. Both Violet & her husband Robert are dead, so we can use their names. Their 1950 Daug prob isn't dead so we cant use her name ( think Christmas song and you are there)


wait up a mo, I'll snd you a PM........ BUT first

tell me, What do you know absolutely certainly about your Violet - what did you know when you started searching?

Just her name and birth date? birth year even?

ok. Merry may have already sent you this, but any way, this what Merry & I think

Violet MARY Handscome born april 1926 Croydon

marries

1950 Q4
married Robert H Flint
Croydon 5G 155

1951 Q1 daughter Born ***** Flint MMN Handcomb Croydon ( whoops!)

1954 Q3 Robert H Flint Dies Croydon 5g 104 (page number difficult to read) aged 31

1977 Q3 (daughter) Flint Marries (****** )Brotherwood, croydon

still think this is Violets death

Violet Mary Flint
Birth Date: 6 Jun 1928
Death Registration Month/Year: Jul 1997
Age at death (estimated): 69
Registration district: Brighton
Inferred County: Sussex
Register number: B56A
Entry Number: 140
===============================================

your violet never married John Mussell, and never had the daughter Mel*********. So forget all relations that may be called Gravenor - they are not yours

Sheila from Down Under
31-12-07, 10:35
Thank you all very much for your help ,as Lyn said I have now applyed for
Trebor's Marriage lines which should be in OZ in 3 weeks time and I will let you know the outcome, So a Happy New Year
Love ,Life ,and Happiness to you all
Sheila
8804
Sheila

Jessbowbag
31-12-07, 10:41
Lets just cross out fingers and hope the fathers name matches.

I assume you mean Robert Flint & Violet Handscomb marriage

1950 Qtr 4 Croydon
5g 155

Chrissie Smiff
31-12-07, 11:35
I have been following the thread but I can't remember, has anyone mentioned that a lady has a possible match on GR for R***** Brotherwood? Born 1947 Croydon. There is also one born 1952 London.

p.s. Just checked and I think the 1947 one could be right as Oct-Dec 1947 has one with the right second initial, mmn Whitehead Croydon 5G71.

p.s. Forgot to say that I think it's been fascinating and you have done a brilliant job:)

Jessbowbag
31-12-07, 12:33
Fascinating- is that what you call it ?? Lol!

No, hadn't got as far as checking that - we need some concrete eveidence that this is finally the right marriage .Violet & Robert Flint

if the fathers name doesnt match I shall scream! ( and you'll probably hear me!)

Lyn A
31-12-07, 12:39
if the fathers name doesnt match I shall scream! ( and you'll probably hear me!)

And I wouldn't blame you!!!
I will run for cover!!! LOL!!

Chrissie Smiff
31-12-07, 12:42
I'm convinced already - I don't think you will need to scream:) Everything you found fits so well. If that is the right one on GR and it really sounds promising, Sheila may be able to find out a lot more.

Jessbowbag
31-12-07, 12:59
I think it is a cast iron illustration of comfirming what you thnk you know as you go along, walk , and dont try and run.

By that I mean anybody, not Sheila specifically.

it was the Bishops Strotford marriage that got me - why Bishops Stortford? No rationalle behind that one.

Lyn A
31-12-07, 13:48
Glad someone is sane enough around here to see the forest despite the trees.

Job well done, Jess.

Sheila from Down Under
31-12-07, 22:11
Good Morning Everyone It's Jan:1st here now,I have a bit of a head well a big one really, but I had to see what has happened over night, I do feel a bit of a twit as Lyn said about wood and tree's very good when you think about it LOL ----despatatch date 7th from the GRO for Violet then 7 to 14 days snail mail to me, not tooooo long to wait
Thanks again
Sheila;):cool:

Jessbowbag
31-12-07, 22:15
Happy new year Sheila , may all your dreams come true in 2008, and all your Handcombs marry Flints, and be eternally happy, not go shoving their head in the gas oven!

Sheila from Down Under
31-12-07, 22:21
Jess I forgot to say that " I know all about her " now. Aunt P went into a great saga about her Violet ,( on the phone last night ) but she was talking about what happened in WW2 ,and I thought I had hit " pay Dirt " but no ,,I thought it funny, Well you have to laugh That's the man Jess at least he could back then :p now I must find the inquest report. I really must, don't you think ???
Sheila


Off "over the road " to see what I can find ,Ta Muchly

Jessbowbag
31-12-07, 23:06
I'd hang on and check you have the right man first - leave the inquest bit until we are sure. we cant go killing off peoples parents with gas oven suicides until we are certain we have got the right bloke!

Wouldnt we have looked silly if we'd have sent a message saying we were related to the John Mussell that gassed himself ''he was your father I believe''

PMSL!

Sheila from Down Under
01-01-08, 02:47
O K Jess

WendyP
01-01-08, 06:21
HI Sheila

I agree with Jess, wait and see what that Handscombe to Flint marriage cert shows you. After all we don't really know whose out there Googling and you may have a family relation reading this thread right now. We don't want to 'spook' anyone just yet.


:):):)

Lynn The Forest Fan
01-01-08, 12:06
Crikey, I've just read throught this thread. what sterling work you have done Jess & Merry

Sheila from Down Under
15-01-08, 07:54
Hi Jess and all that helped me with this Chap ~~~~~~~~ waves to all--:D WELL the Postman called today with the GRO Wedding certificate and guess what Jess ????? You were right:o
Violet Mary Edith Handscomb did marry Robert Henry Flint in 1950 he died in Croydon in 1954 now it's off again to the GRO this time for his death certificate so then I'll be able to lay this to rest- Then I'll try thre Coroner's Office in Croydon. I'll let you all kno IF and WHY he stuck his head in the gas oven
Thanks again
Sheila

Lyn A
15-01-08, 08:44
Great news Sheila. Glad it is sorted! Look forward to hearing what really happened to him!

Well done to the super sleuths!!

Jessbowbag
15-01-08, 09:01
I saw this thread back at the top, and clicked on it with trepidation.
I am so glad we were right - sorry that sounds wrong - what I mean is.....

After all that work, i'd have been miffed if it was wrong.

please tell me the fathers name matches too

Merry Monty Montgomery
15-01-08, 10:44
Good to hear it's sorted.

Sheila from Down Under
15-01-08, 11:13
Jess It is a match with bell's on . Albert Victor Eaton Handscomb Father ---Violet Mary Edith Handscomb Daughter age 24----Robert Henry Flint age 28 Married when you said ----next question, How do I find outabout the Inquest ????? Please
Sheila

Jessbowbag
15-01-08, 11:15
Tell You what- I am impressed with the delivery time - 15 days , bank holiday in between too - then all the way to Australia - impressive

Merry Monty Montgomery
15-01-08, 11:20
Inquest records are closed for 75 years, so you will have to try the local newspapers.

Sheila from Down Under
15-01-08, 11:26
Thank you Merry
Jess --- in some cases it is good being " Down Under " and this is one time it pays off ,7 to 10 days from you to me so to speak
Sheila

WendyP
15-01-08, 15:07
HI


As others have said, glad its sorted. I enjoyed rereading th is thread as I had forgotten what is was initially about.